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03-29-2012, 03:45 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by DandA Quote
Hi
I stated this elsewhere but I think it might be germain to the discussion. I don't think this revised lens necessarily means that there will be no full frame 645D. It appears that to align the image circle perfectly with the older model lens for use on full frame, it might have been a labor intensive effort and many samples initially didn't cut it. Therefore to streamline production and make things easier to adjust in assembly, modifications were made to the lens and the image circle and alignment just has to be a bit greater than that needed for the cropped 645D sensor. Theoretically, the new version should be less expensive but Pentax might not want to offend those that already spent money for the older lens for use on their 645D.
Dave (DandA)
I have always found this lens very odd. Why make it an F:4 lens; extremely expensive and heavy for hat it is. An F:5.6 lens would have been half the price and weight and the speed is fast enough for landscape and architecture this lens will be used for. You might even have been able to use filters on such a lens. If it turns out to be difficult to make, makes it just more baffling. I feel that the lack of a reasonably affordable ($5000 is super telephoto territory pricewise) wideangle is the biggest obstacle for the cropped 645D system.
The fact that they have replaced a standard zoom on the roadmap with a very wide to standard zoom, and that they have released the 90/2.8, and odd focal lenght for FF 645, may indeed indicate that they have droped the plans of an FF 645D. A pity if so.....

03-29-2012, 09:40 AM   #32
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It doesn't make sense to me to come out with a 25mm prime and then a couple years later a 28-40 or so zoom, both for the cropped 645D sensor, so I'm being optimistic in thinking that the new 25mm prime is for the 645D and the 28-40mm will be for a full frame sensor. Otherwise, wouldn't that basically just make the 25mm somewhat obsolete?

Then again, if they were going to the image circle large enough for both a cropped and full frame sensor, isn't that a heck of a lot easier to do with a prime than a zoom? I'm not a 'lens engineer' so correct me if I'm wrong.

A full frame (60mp or so) 645DII with a good 28-40mm zoom, at a reasonable price ($16-$18K for both) would really be great for landscape shooters, like myself.
03-29-2012, 01:33 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I have always found this lens very odd. Why make it an F:4 lens; extremely expensive and heavy for hat it is. An F:5.6 lens would have been half the price and weight and the speed is fast enough for landscape and architecture this lens will be used for. You might even have been able to use filters on such a lens. If it turns out to be difficult to make, makes it just more baffling. I feel that the lack of a reasonably affordable ($5000 is super telephoto territory pricewise) wideangle is the biggest obstacle for the cropped 645D system.
The fact that they have replaced a standard zoom on the roadmap with a very wide to standard zoom, and that they have released the 90/2.8, and odd focal lenght for FF 645, may indeed indicate that they have droped the plans of an FF 645D. A pity if so.....
Well, now that i bought it, i will have time to check the quality of this DFA 25 with film as well as with cropped sensor.

My first few trials with this lens last year did not result in any trouble, but some CAs :

645N2 :
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645D :
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03-29-2012, 02:04 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Actually, it might as well indicate the oposite. It may be that Pentax have figured out that this lens do not meet the standard for an FF 645 sensors (eg edge definition), and instead of giving the lens a bad reputation, they marked it as for cropped sensors only (the need for a 25mm on a FF 645 is debatable as it is extremely wide). Otherwise, it would be weird to keep the D-FA label on the new 90mm if there were no FF in the plans....Why not call all 645 lenses DA then?
Interesting thought, although the D FA label is apparetly maintained for the Japanese market. But yes it makes sense that it is merely relabelling.

03-31-2012, 12:22 PM   #35
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I would think so too, although there is no official information relative either to a new lens formula nor to a D-FA perpetuation...

For those who wish to get the D-FA lens - even if without annual warranty, there is this seller :
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices
03-31-2012, 02:44 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Tischer Quote
It doesn't make sense to me to come out with a 25mm prime and then a couple years later a 28-40 or so zoom, both for the cropped 645D sensor, so I'm being optimistic in thinking that the new 25mm prime is for the 645D and the 28-40mm will be for a full frame sensor. Otherwise, wouldn't that basically just make the 25mm somewhat obsolete? Then again, if they were going to the image circle large enough for both a cropped and full frame sensor, isn't that a heck of a lot easier to do with a prime than a zoom? I'm not a 'lens engineer' so correct me if I'm wrong. A full frame (60mp or so) 645DII with a good 28-40mm zoom, at a reasonable price ($16-$18K for both) would really be great for landscape shooters, like myself.
That's the position I am holding. No comment yet about the new 90mm being rebadged as a DA. And I know some people say the 90mm is a odd length in FF but Pentax hasn't always had a reputation of making standard length lenses, for 645 well yeah but 35mm no.
04-06-2012, 01:02 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Tischer Quote
It doesn't make sense to me to come out with a 25mm prime and then a couple years later a 28-40 or so zoom, both for the cropped 645D sensor, so I'm being optimistic in thinking that the new 25mm prime is for the 645D and the 28-40mm will be for a full frame sensor. Otherwise, wouldn't that basically just make the 25mm somewhat obsolete? .
No. We have zoom lenses in all focal lenghts ranges and prime lenses in the same range too. I think it is worringly; it may indicate that pentax may stick to a cropped 645 camera and lenses in order to make it more competitive vs. 35mm full frame. It may also indicate that Pentax will not make an FF K-mount DSLR cause the 645 system will take that role. I'm just speculating, but the fact that Pentax choose to intruduce the DA name in the MF system must mean something....
04-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ryan Tischer Quote
A full frame (60mp or so) 645DII with a good 28-40mm zoom, at a reasonable price ($16-$18K for both) would really be great for landscape shooters, like myself.
A FF 28-40 zoom is not realistic. It would be horribly expensive. The 33-55 was an achievement (and it isn't the best optically) and is the widest zoom ever made for MF...

04-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #39
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I am affraid ou are right Pal...
04-06-2012, 02:57 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
A FF 28-40 zoom is not realistic. It would be horribly expensive. The 33-55 was an achievement (and it isn't the best optically) and is the widest zoom ever made for MF...
QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I am affraid ou are right Pal...
Everybody thought the same thing when Nikon made the 14-24mm. And nobody ever though it could out perform primes.

The lens road map shows it so obviously Pentax has been working on such a lens. I don't thing Pentax would put it on the road map if they didn't think it was possible. It doesn't have to be fast. I would be perfectly happy with 5.6 or 6.3 since I would never consider shooting it less than f 8. I don't think Ricoh is going to shoot themselves in the foot and cripple all the new lenses for 645. The 645 system in itself isn't trying to achieve the small and lightweight goal of the K mount currently (as further reinforced by the mirrorless K). It would deplete their 645D sales since users would take it as a statement that there is no hope ever for FF. Pentax has two niches now: compact, robust, outdoors oriented dslrs, and cost effective medium format with a upgrade path to FF. Why would they kill that? The current 55mm isn't being rebadged as DA yet.

That is a key factor to look at when choosing the 645D over 35mm. I think Nikon has maxed the resolution they can ever get out of the 35mm image circle with the D800. Lenses are the key limiting factor. I doubt there is enough technology, market, and cost driving force for 35mm lenses to jump in resolution high enough to go 60mp. 645 isn't there as for Pentax it can still go FF in the future.
04-06-2012, 03:48 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by atlnq9 Quote
Everybody thought the same thing when Nikon made the 14-24mm. And nobody ever though it could out perform primes.

The lens road map shows it so obviously Pentax has been working on such a lens. I don't thing Pentax would put it on the road map if they didn't think it was possible. It doesn't have to be fast. I would be perfectly happy with 5.6 or 6.3 since I would never consider shooting it less than f 8. I don't think Ricoh is going to shoot themselves in the foot and cripple all the new lenses for 645. .

The MF equivalent of the 14-24 (it is not as good as a prime) would cost $50 000 and I'm not exagregating.
Why would Pentax introduce the DA name if the cropped sensor was not a permanent feature?
The fact that they changed the lens roadmap by making the zoom from a standard zoom to a wide angle zoom (in fullframe 645 terms), indicate strongly that the coming zoom lens is intended for the cropped sensor and is hence a DA lens.
As the main constraint for sucess for the 645 system is cost, it make no sense to make an extreme and expensive wide zoom instaed of a more moderate one both in price and angle of view, if it wasn't dictated by the cropped sensor. If Pentax do not plan to make an FF 645, then theres no point in adding the significant extra cost of making it cover the whole 645 frame.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 04-06-2012 at 05:00 PM.
04-07-2012, 12:22 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The MF equivalent of the 14-24 (it is not as good as a prime) would cost $50 000 and I'm not exagregating. Why would Pentax introduce the DA name if the cropped sensor was not a permanent feature? The fact that they changed the lens roadmap by making the zoom from a standard zoom to a wide angle zoom (in fullframe 645 terms), indicate strongly that the coming zoom lens is intended for the cropped sensor and is hence a DA lens. As the main constraint for sucess for the 645 system is cost, it make no sense to make an extreme and expensive wide zoom instaed of a more moderate one both in price and angle of view, if it wasn't dictated by the cropped sensor. If Pentax do not plan to make an FF 645, then theres no point in adding the significant extra cost of making it cover the whole 645 frame.
Are you saying the 14-24mm from Nikon isn't as good as the primes from Nikon? Not talking about the Zeiss 21mm which beats the zoom. Because all reports I have seen are that it does. Or are you saying the 33-55mm MF isn't as good as primes. I am just saying what can be done might suprise you by comparing the 14-24.

Seriously doubt Ricoh will shoot themselves in the foot by making only cropped sensor lenses for the 645. They have to see where it has lead Pentax with the cropped K and all the lenses. The 645D isn't cheap enough to compete with 35mm landscape systems (Nikon D800 and Canon 5D). There is a reason the new 25mm was relabeled DA. There is a reason the 55mm hasn't been relabeled DA. We just don't know what the reason is so everything is speculation. They have lens on the map that looks exactly like a reissue of the 45-85, do you think they are going to redesign that lens for cropped sensor only; or just bring it out with SDM, weather sealing, and new coatings?

I would be perfectly happy with a 30-45 or even a revised 33-55 with better image quality. Or even a high quality 30mm prime. But I don't think they are going to kill the sales of thier 645 line by saying it is DA only. If they did that everybody would be better with phase body or hassy. There is a upgrade path. I highly doubt it would cost 50k, but I would pay 8k for it if it was a great performer. It doesn't have to be fast because it is a landscape lens. In reality it doesn't even need AF. A lot of people will shoot near infinity or focus bracket. It just needs a well done distance scale.

I think the statement of it costing 25 times that of a 33-55 is exaggerated. If you follow that logic a 600 4.0 would cost 25 times a 300 2.8. Sure a 600 2.8 might cost 25 times a 300 2.8. But I think that is even exaggerated. Doesn't Sigma make something like a 250-500 2.8 and isn't it only 20k?

Last edited by atlnq9; 04-07-2012 at 12:47 AM.
04-07-2012, 04:45 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by atlnq9 Quote
Are you saying the 14-24mm from Nikon isn't as good as the primes from Nikon? Not talking about the Zeiss 21mm which beats the zoom. Because all reports I have seen are that it does. Or are you saying the 33-55mm MF isn't as good as primes. I am just saying what can be done might suprise you by comparing the 14-24.

Seriously doubt Ricoh will shoot themselves in the foot by making only cropped sensor lenses for the 645. They have to see where it has lead Pentax with the cropped K and all the lenses. The 645D isn't cheap enough to compete with 35mm landscape systems (Nikon D800 and Canon 5D). There is a reason the new 25mm was relabeled DA. There is a reason the 55mm hasn't been relabeled DA. We just don't know what the reason is so everything is speculation. They have lens on the map that looks exactly like a reissue of the 45-85, do you think they are going to redesign that lens for cropped sensor only; or just bring it out with SDM, weather sealing, and new coatings?

The 14-24 is not as good as a prime lens with same technology would have been (it may be as good as 30 year old primes in some respects). It also flares badly so it is virtually useless as a landscape lens with the sun in the frame. Anyway, you can not compare a lens for 35mm FF with a medium format lens. A medium format lens is much more expensive to make with similar range. And while Nikon probably sells 10 000's of the 14-24 Pentax would sell a few 100's at the most of a similar MF lens provided that it is somehwat resonably priced (which is doubtful).

A cropped 645 system would at least be closer to competing with FF. It may make a higher price justified while not being so high that it is totally out of range for the amateur ohotographer. In addition, lots can be done making the 645 camera smaller. With a traditional DSLR form factor it can be made 35% smaller and camera would be no larger than a D800. Cropped MF system and cropped K-mount system may be Pentax answer to FF. But then changes must be made to the 645 camera making it more affordable and more streamlined compared to other DSLR. In addition Pentax needs to adress the wide angle issue in order to make the cropped 645 system reallly viable. Five thousand dollars and over 1kg weight is not the answer; perhaps the zoom will correct this issue.

The reason for the D-FA lenses is that Pentax probably planned FF 645 to start with and that they can be used on the film 645's. They have changed the name of the 25mm from D-FA to DA indicating some change of plan. It makes probably not much sense to continue make lenses for the film 645's in the future, and the DA naming indicate that cropped sensors is here to stay. I doubt Pentax will make both cropped 645's and FF 645 in the future with both DA and D-FA lenses in the line-up. The coombined sales in such a system will be too low.
The fact that they have apparently dropped the 45-85 replacement on the roadmap with a lens that have similar magnification range on a cropped sensor as the 45-85 on an FF 645 sensor, is again very telling in my opinion. I'm pretty sure it would be a DA lens.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 04-07-2012 at 04:52 AM.
04-07-2012, 05:42 AM   #44
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Comments in red. I am being optimistic that Ricoh is planning farther ahead than Hoya did. You are taking a "this is what I see from what Pentax isn't commenting on" approach.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The 14-24 is not as good as a prime lens with same technology would have been (it may be as good as 30 year old primes in some respects). It also flares badly so it is virtually useless as a landscape lens with the sun in the frame. Anyway, you can not compare a lens for 35mm FF with a medium format lens. A medium format lens is much more expensive to make with similar range. And while Nikon probably sells 10 000's of the 14-24 Pentax would sell a few 100's at the most of a similar MF lens provided that it is somehwat resonably priced (which is doubtful). I am just trying to describe what can be done that sometimes seems impossible. Several great landscape lenses have flared pretty bad yet you just have to understand how to control it. You can't kill a lens because of flare. Many more zooms flare worse than primes it is just inherent in them. I understand the volume sales difference but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Just trying to provide an example that we can be surprised by what manufactures deliver is all.

A cropped 645 system would at least be closer to competing with FF. It may make a higher price justified while not being so high that it is totally out of range for the amateur ohotographer. In addition, lots can be done making the 645 camera smaller. With a traditional DSLR form factor it can be made 35% smaller and camera would be no larger than a D800. Cropped MF system and cropped K-mount system may be Pentax answer to FF. But then changes must be made to the 645 camera making it more affordable and more streamlined compared to other DSLR. In addition Pentax needs to adress the wide angle issue in order to make the cropped 645 system reallly viable. Five thousand dollars and over 1kg weight is not the answer; perhaps the zoom will correct this issue. Now you're talking Leica S2 styling but making it a but more efficient. Drastic change from what Pentax is use to and probably would come in at higher price. Pentax already had much of the 645D designed from the film 645N prisms and mirror box coupled with the already developed K5 interface. That is why we saw the 645D as cheap as we did. A redesign still won't compete with FF because Pentax's volume sales will never match Nikon/Canon making costs still out of reach. I hope they don't take this approach.

The reason for the D-FA lenses is that Pentax probably planned FF 645 to start with and that they can be used on the film 645's. They have changed the name of the 25mm from D-FA to DA indicating some change of plan. It makes probably not much sense to continue make lenses for the film 645's in the future, and the DA naming indicate that cropped sensors is here to stay. I doubt Pentax will make both cropped 645's and FF 645 in the future with both DA and D-FA lenses in the line-up. The coombined sales in such a system will be too low. I hope this isn't the case and they saw drastic improvements with the larger hood promoting the DA change. I prefer to be optimistic and that in 5yrs there will be a FF Pentax 645 option. I see the no name change to the D-FA 55mm as a positive step. Will get a better insight when the 90mm comes if it is DA or D-FA. I hope they don't take this approach because it instills less confidence in users to buy into the Pentax 645 system because they will see no hope for a upgrade without replacing the entire system.

The fact that they have apparently dropped the 45-85 replacement on the roadmap with a lens that have similar magnification range on a cropped sensor as the 45-85 on an FF 645 sensor, is again very telling in my opinion. I'm pretty sure it would be a DA lens. The last lens roadmap I say still had the 45-85 as a 45-85 and not smaller focal lengths. This was just a few months ago. Lines up perfectly with the 45-85 listed above it. This was CP+ 2012. There was also the wider zoom which we have been talking about but this would be fantastic on FF as well. 25mm is too wide for me on FF. Maybe they just tried to achieve too much with 25mm and FF. If the new wide works well on FF also it is a perfect pair for both. I am being optimistic. I may never want to go to FF in 5yrs but if it comes in at 20K I might be able to justify it only if I don't have to replace these wide lenses.
04-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by atlnq9 Quote
Comments in red. I am being optimistic that Ricoh is planning farther ahead than Hoya did. You are taking a "this is what I see from what Pentax isn't commenting on" approach.
I need my sunglasses to read this forum now.
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