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04-13-2012, 07:53 AM   #31
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If you like a 3:2 aspect ratio, a D800 is the camera. But if 4:3, then the 645D is a better choice (not counting the dollars). I don't crop--I shot full frame and 3:2 cameras I find difficult to work with.

I use the 645D for documentary and studio work and so it is just as easy for me to use a 645D or D800. Sports might be different. I am sure I could do sports with a 645D, but the Nikon would pull ahead here.

The Nikon would pull ahead with choices for focal length as well. To me, that is not important as I always work with a three lens kit and the focal lengths I want are available for the 645D. But the Nikon is a more flexible system. Personally, I find that an empty benefit--a choice is only a choice if it is a possibility. Why go to a bar because they sever more types of cocktails when I only drink beer?

04-13-2012, 08:57 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Thomas Quote
Where did you find the 25mm for that price?
Through a friend who managed to find it in Jpn
04-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Whats_edoo Quote
Sounds like interesting work. Good point multiple tools for multiple purposes.
Thanks! The issue though for me personally was if the Nikon D800 was 18-24 MP, then I would still have the need for shooting both systems simultaneously as I described in my previous post. Now that' the D800 is encroaching on 645D territory, resolution wise, I'm not certain there is a distinct need for both systems. In my particular case the D800 could pull off almost all duties with possibly only a sacrifice of ultimate print quality in very sizable large format prints, whereas the 645D couldn't. Lots of choices and decisions and I'm sure I'm not the only one with such a delema.

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04-13-2012, 02:01 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Thomas Quote
The D800 is a tempting camera, but consider that you need the best lenses (i.e. newest and expensive) to fully use the resolution of the sensor. The larger 645D sensor is less demanding of lenses. A twenty-year-old 120mm A macro costs about $500 and outresolves the sensor and other old lenses are excellent as well. By the time you factor in lens costs, the 645D is not more expensive and it's still got a better image.
But, Whats_edoo does landscape photography. In that case, the D800 ($3K) and the revered Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 lens ($2K) comes to $5K. The Pentax 645D with a the new 25mm Lens is $15,000 and that's just for one focal length. The Nikon user has an extra $10K in his pocket to spend on lenses, vacations, dentures, etc. I'm also certain that a lens like the manual focus Nikkor 500 f/4 P Lens will fair beautifully on the D800. And, you can get it used for $2,500. Plus, medium format lenses, based on their size (much more glass and materials), all cost more than 35mm lenses (focal lengths and maximum apertures being equal).

04-13-2012, 04:55 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
But, Whats_edoo does landscape photography. In that case, the D800 ($3K) and the revered Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 lens ($2K) comes to $5K. The Pentax 645D with a the new 25mm Lens is $15,000 and that's just for one focal length. The Nikon user has an extra $10K in his pocket to spend on lenses, vacations, dentures, etc. I'm also certain that a lens like the manual focus Nikkor 500 f/4 P Lens will fair beautifully on the D800. And, you can get it used for $2,500. Plus, medium format lenses, based on their size (much more glass and materials), all cost more than 35mm lenses (focal lengths and maximum apertures being equal).

Yep Dentures
04-13-2012, 05:52 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
But, Whats_edoo does landscape photography. In that case, the D800 ($3K) and the revered Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 lens ($2K) comes to $5K.
I would never use the 14-24 for landscape photography; too much flare....
Otherwise I agree that the biggest problem for the Pentax 645 cropped system is the wide angle issue: $5000 and 1kg is too much in all respects. Having said that, I guess the coming 28-45 (or whatever its pecise focal lenght range is) may solve the problem at least partially.

However, one should consider that if you buy into the Pentax 645 system you buy into a system that outperform FF. By owning the lenses you have access to a camera system that goes beyond and will stay beyond FF.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 04-13-2012 at 05:58 PM.
04-13-2012, 09:02 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
But, Whats_edoo does landscape photography. In that case, the D800 ($3K) and the revered Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 lens ($2K) comes to $5K. The Pentax 645D with a the new 25mm Lens is $15,000 and that's just for one focal length. The Nikon user has an extra $10K in his pocket to spend on lenses, vacations, dentures, etc. I'm also certain that a lens like the manual focus Nikkor 500 f/4 P Lens will fair beautifully on the D800. And, you can get it used for $2,500. Plus, medium format lenses, based on their size (much more glass and materials), all cost more than 35mm lenses (focal lengths and maximum apertures being equal).
Well, it has always been know that art is primarily an economic problem. It is always about getting the best deal.

I know it is really fashionable for landscape photographers to use ultra wides, but the OP may not want to use the 25mm. I am not sure a 500mm will be that great for landscape either.

The price for medium-format lenses has more to do with production/sales volume and tolerances than simply material costs.
04-13-2012, 09:19 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Whats_edoo Quote
So please feel free to add your two cents.
QuoteOriginally posted by Whats_edoo Quote
Is the 645D worth $7000.00 more than the D800/E
My two cents, buy the D800E, spend $6000 on lenses and use that last $1000 to go on holiday somewhere

04-14-2012, 12:30 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by chicagonature Quote
But, Whats_edoo does landscape photography. In that case, the D800 ($3K) and the revered Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 lens ($2K) comes to $5K. The Pentax 645D with a the new 25mm Lens is $15,000 and that's just for one focal length. The Nikon user has an extra $10K in his pocket to spend on lenses, vacations, dentures, etc. I'm also certain that a lens like the manual focus Nikkor 500 f/4 P Lens will fair beautifully on the D800. And, you can get it used for $2,500. Plus, medium format lenses, based on their size (much more glass and materials), all cost more than 35mm lenses (focal lengths and maximum apertures being equal).
I am a landscape photographer and find anything wider than the 35mm is not often necessary (less than 3% of the time do I need something wider). One can stitch about 50% of the scenes when I need wider so the 5k you speak of is a lot of money to use 1.5% of the time. What I use for landscapes is the 35-300mm lenses and often the 600mm when taking environmental wildlife images.

The set of Nikon lenses I would need would cost 11K. I can sell my 645 glass and get 6k. So 11k - 6k +3k = 8k. So it came down to the camera which had the usability to inspire my style.

And if I was buying the 14-24 I would need to invest another 1k in a filter holder and larger ND's and grad ND's...

Last edited by atlnq9; 04-14-2012 at 12:46 AM.
04-14-2012, 02:23 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bigvern1263 Quote
Do your homework guys, there are certainly bargains to be had when chasing camera gear..

I picked up 5 A lenses and a 645N Camera and kit and hard case all of Fleabay, from a dude in the USA for approx $600 something dollars. (45mm, 55mm, 75mm, 120mm, 150mm) All absolutely amazing glass and as new not a scratch or mark on them, the owner was very particular and had loved them.. And they all work superbly on the 645D...Crisp/sharp great colour etc etc..

My 645D again purchased second hand ( 8 months or so old) at 30 % discount of NEW price WITH the 55mm Digital lens..
Canon 44 inch LF printer, 12 months old with heaps of ink/paper/frames ...Owner had to sell i was looking 70% discount on new price....

Maybe i was lucky, and im sure others have similar stories, just dont rush it, take your time and look around...

Anyway slightly off topic, but thought i would share my experience.
You could say the same about the Nikon system. There are plenty of manual focus lenses that are outstanding and costs nothing. Even a brand new Zeiss ZF lineup is really cheap for what you get and they will easily outresolve the D800 sensor.

--------------

Personally, I'd choose the D800 because of the lenses. The difference in sensor size is just not enough since the 645D is cropped and the lenses are slow. I also hated the Pentax viewfinder when I tried one.
04-14-2012, 02:32 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Hello, let me say first that i am exhausted of this kind of "comparison" threads between two photographic systems that have about nothing in common, but the number of photosites ...

Did you for example ask you the question, wether to replace your Sony A900 by the Sony A77 ?
Because the differences btw those two are even lessened : exactly the same resolution !
Still different sensor sizes, with close ratios in both cases (let appart the 4:3 versus 3:2 format... btw 24x6 and 645D...)

But OK, forgetting these details, let's admit that money can be THE drive of your choice...

So in this respect, i will just give you the prices i paid for my 645 Lens collection :

D-FA 25/4 : 4600 USD, new

FA 35/3.5 : 1300 USD, mint

FA 45-85/4.5 : 950 USD, new

D-FA 55/2.8 : 1200 USD, new

FA 75/2.8 : 450 USD, new

FA 80-160/4.5 : 1200 USD, new

A 135/4 LS : 450 USD, new

FA 150/2.8 : 1150 USD, mint

FA* 300/4 : 1950 USD, mint

Supposedly with no differences in photographic use (for example AF speed...), can you bring us the Nikon equivalent or closest focal lenses prices in recent (say less than 2 years) values ?

Is the bargain still in favour of Nikon in the end ?
I agree with you on the sensor size. SO much complaining that the APS-C is not good enough, that they all need a bigger FF sensor. But then suddenly questions arrise if the smaller sensor of the D800 is good enough over the bigger sensor of the 645D.

Just get your act together. If bigger sensor is better, then the 645D is better than the D800. If that is not the case, then stop complaining that FF is so much better than APS-C, cause then also that isn't true.
04-14-2012, 06:48 AM   #42
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Has anyone seen print 30x40" prints from the D800 and compared them w/ prints from the 645D? I'm curious if there's less dynamic range and smoothness w/ the D800. From what I've seen, the D800 is essentially the D7000's photosites (which have great dynamic range in the shadows as we've seen w/ the K-5) at much higher resolution so you can downsample to get "equivalent high ISO" to the Canon 5DmkIII and D700.

And does Whats_Edoo print large sizes? i.e., what do you do w/ your images? That's a big part of "do you really need this?" too...unless it's more a question of "do you want this?" ;-)
I agree w/ the high-end audio comparison at this level. At a certain point, performance doesn't increase that much more for the extra you pay (or you get tone deaf as you get older, I forget :-) so you just have to figure out your point on the curve that you want to be...
04-14-2012, 07:29 AM   #43
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So why is the OP even posting? (That was his first post at Pentax Forums, I might add.) No one buys a camera like a 645D or D800 because of opinions on a photo forum. He can get his hands on a 645D to try. He should then get a D800 to try and then compare the results. It still comes down to the same thing--buy what you want.
04-14-2012, 08:10 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
Has anyone seen print 30x40" prints from the D800 and compared them w/ prints from the 645D? I'm curious if there's less dynamic range and smoothness w/ the D800. From what I've seen, the D800 is essentially the D7000's photosites (which have great dynamic range in the shadows as we've seen w/ the K-5) at much higher resolution so you can downsample to get "equivalent high ISO" to the Canon 5DmkIII and D700.

And does Whats_Edoo print large sizes? i.e., what do you do w/ your images? That's a big part of "do you really need this?" too...unless it's more a question of "do you want this?" ;-)
I agree w/ the high-end audio comparison at this level. At a certain point, performance doesn't increase that much more for the extra you pay (or you get tone deaf as you get older, I forget :-) so you just have to figure out your point on the curve that you want to be...

Need and want......Isn't that a question. Concerning many things? As far as the need part, I sell my prints. I never know which image is going to be requested in a large size so every thing I shoot is with the intent of printing as large as possible even if the bulk of what I shoot never make it over 20 x 30. And then the fact there are usually pictures within pictures when one shoots this way. Which can allow for the unexpected and very nice crops from these large images that can still be blown up fairly decently on there own. I wish I could claim more skill but the truth of the mater is most of my best shots occurred in spite of my best planning. The luck factor where would we be without it

I had a conversation with a friend in the audio field years ago and we came to the conclusion that money is no longer a guarantee of quality. One can quite easily spend a fortune on something that should rise above the pack in it's field only to be sorely disappointed. And as you point out when one gets to the upper echelons in many fields it's no longer about better which suddenly becomes an esoteric term it's more about differences on that level. And I think that's true in this particular discussion.

So I think this conversation has matured to the point where the discussion of money has become secondary.. yes .. no ? ( Regardless of the amount of money one has or doesn't have. There can still be choices made. ) to expression and use differences as has been mention by other knowledgeable and experienced folks earlier. One should choose tools that best fit one's intent and style if you will. Like a painter choosing a specific brush for a specific task or effect. The Nikon is a more general tool. The Pentax is a more specific one. Perhaps the choice is simple after all....
04-14-2012, 08:20 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yamanobori Quote
So why is the OP even posting? (That was his first post at Pentax Forums, I might add.) No one buys a camera like a 645D or D800 because of opinions on a photo forum. He can get his hands on a 645D to try. He should then get a D800 to try and then compare the results. It still comes down to the same thing--buy what you want.
( So why is the OP even posting? )


Isen't the point of these forums to exchange ideas and opinions? I enjoy listening, learning, and seeing. The choice or lack of choice in this discussion is not one specific to me or the two cameras in question. I have received what I wanted in the varying opinions offered. In that sense this has been a useful and productive effort. In the end I will do as I wish as you point out. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the conversation.
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