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05-09-2012, 12:36 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
. For price of one 645D you can get either two Nikon bodies or one body and a bunch of some top notch Nikon glass.
be careful. Nikon published a "D800 /D800E Technical Guide" in which "recommended" lenses are listed. In contrary the not listed lenses ? - should you use it with a D800/E ????
And from Carl Zeiss I have heard that the Nikon 800/800E is a "Konjunkturprogramm*" for their ZF.2 primes. The photographer Ming Thein in the link I posted above used a Carl Zeiss prime (the 2.0/28mm "Hollywood") for his D800 in the test.

* german for economic stimulus package

05-09-2012, 12:59 AM   #32
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Veraikon, thanks! Most fascinating reading comparing Leica S2 and Nikon D800E. Well, Nikon indeed changed the game and may be even changed the game entirely. More points to the Nikon here.
05-09-2012, 02:20 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
... Naturally, above logic does not apply if you're invested in Pentax glass, have emotional feelings towards Pentax, have good reasons to want even more pixels than Nikon offers, shoot only in the studio, etc.
This typically doesn't make the difference btw the two systems.
The tropicalisation is shared by both Nikon and Pentax bodies, even if there are less weather-proof lenses for the 645D.
And according to uses and lenses needed, i repeat that the global budget for both systems do NOT differ significantly.
05-09-2012, 03:12 AM   #34
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Zygonyx, the comment you emphasized in bold in my previous message wasn't intended to imply tropicalisation as you put it. I have very minor first hand experience shooting with 645NII and D700. Assuming that 645D and D800 are similar I should point out that Nikon is far more portable and carriable, although 645NII is remarkably hand-holdable MedFormat camera. I don't want to get into argument of which lenses are equivalent to which lenses on which camera and how much then allegedly comparable system would cost. For non-specific use, Nikon appears to offer far more choices for lenses that Pentax 645. This implies that in order to start getting sensible results from D800 one does not have to buy the most expensive or most advanced glass. Even the likes of older AF lenses would do very nicely. Similarly Pentax has 645-A lenses (non-AF) that are very good as well.

Like I said in my very first message in this thread, for me personally, the choice is a no-brainer - Nikon. I don't mean that as a trolling remark against Pentax (look at my signature for more details on this :-) ). I simply state my opinion on the question asked by the original poster.

05-09-2012, 08:54 AM   #35
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something about the AF problems of the Nikom D800 LumoLabs -- Nikon D800/E outer AF sensor accuracy -- Technical study / Whitepaper
05-09-2012, 09:06 AM   #36
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Happy 645D owner

I must say that after seeing this image in 100% I just realized how much I love my Pentax 645D. (probably something wrong with the image)
All sizes | D8E_0598 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

It is a brilliant work tool with very good lenses that you can find for descent price, used but in perfect condition!

But I promise you that you will be happy with the one you choose. Remember that the best lenses for the Nikon are really expensive as well (new).

Jani
05-09-2012, 10:35 AM   #37
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Hmmm... since I posted my question I've begun to believe that the d800e vs 645d is like the anthropogenic climate warming debate! Those that are considering the d800e are "deniers" :evil:, in the sense that they are unwilling to acknowledge superior image IQ of the large 645d sensor + lenses (wink! wink! ). And that in a nutshell is what I need to figure out: Is there something really "magic" about the 645d sensor and lens combination that truly trumps the d800e + nikon glass?? I have done some price comparisons with simple lens kits - and from what I have been reading you absolutely do not need to buy the very best (most expensive nikon or zeiss) glass to fully utilize the d800e sensor for landscape photography. You need to shell out mega dollars if you are into bokeh (should be banned from photography!) and need the extra stop. It seems what you need with the d800e is a HEAVY tripod and MFD methodology. Anyways:

Pentax 645d $10,000
D-FA 55mm $1,000 or $500 for some other version?
FA 45-85mm $700
FA 120mm $900
total $12,600 ($12,100)

Nikon d800e $3300
Nikon AF-S 24-70mm $2000 (although I'd probably get the cheaper 24-120mm as reviews of this lens on the d800 are good)
Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G $200 (yes! the cheap guy!)
Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G $500 (yes, not the more expensive 1.4 version)

Total $6,000

DIFFERENCE ~$6,000 for basic and a simple lens kit (maybe ~$4,000 diff for a used kit?)

Forgetting the debate about lenses for the time being, the simple question becomes is there something about the Pentax 645d image IQ that is really worth $6000? I live once and at this point in my life I can afford the 645d - BUT I have to actually see, in a large print, that the 645d really is superior to the d800e. If I can see the "magic" of the 645d then I probably start hunting for a used version or maybe Pentax lowers their price (I can't imagine that the Nikon d800e hasn't significantly hurt 645d sales). So until I see some real world comparisons I'm going to sit on the sidelines.

Anyways, It is great to have choices!
05-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarthImage Quote
Hmmm... since I posted my question I've begun to believe that the d800e vs 645d is like the anthropogenic climate warming debate! Anyways:

Pentax 645d $10,000
D-FA 55mm $1,000 or $500 for some other version?
FA 45-85mm $700
FA 120mm $900
total $12,600 ($12,100)

Nikon d800e $3300
Nikon AF-S 24-70mm $2000 (although I'd probably get the cheaper 24-120mm as reviews of this lens on the d800 are good)
Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G $200 (yes! the cheap guy!)
Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G $500 (yes, not the more expensive 1.4 version)

Total $6,000

DIFFERENCE ~$6,000 for basic and a simple lens kit (maybe ~$4,000 diff for a used kit?)


Anyways, It is great to have choices!

sorry you have to subsitute the Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G and Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G in your list
Nikon suggests the use of these lenses with the D800/D800E:

  • AF-S NIKKOR 1424 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 2470 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 70200 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 1635 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 24120 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 200400 mm f/4G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 24 mm f/1.4G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 35 mm f/1.4G
    AF-S NIKKOR 85 mm f/1.4G
    AF-S NIKKOR 200 mm f/2G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 300 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 400 mm f/2.8G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 500 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S Micro NIKKOR 60 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S VR Micro-Nikkor 105 mm f/2.8G IF-ED

source: Nikon D800 Technical Guide page 16

I suggest in subsitution a Carl Zeiss Makro Planar 2.0/50mm (1150 ) and a Carl Zeiss Makro Planar 2.0/100mm (1650 )

05-09-2012, 11:17 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarthImage Quote
Hmmm... since I posted my question I've begun to believe that the d800e vs 645d is like the anthropogenic climate warming debate! Those that are considering the d800e are "deniers" :evil:, in the sense that they are unwilling to acknowledge superior image IQ of the large 645d sensor + lenses (wink! wink! ). And that in a nutshell is what I need to figure out: Is there something really "magic" about the 645d sensor and lens combination that truly trumps the d800e + nikon glass?? I have done some price comparisons with simple lens kits - and from what I have been reading you absolutely do not need to buy the very best (most expensive nikon or zeiss) glass to fully utilize the d800e sensor for landscape photography. You need to shell out mega dollars if you are into bokeh (should be banned from photography!) and need the extra stop. It seems what you need with the d800e is a HEAVY tripod and MFD methodology. Anyways:

Pentax 645d $10,000
D-FA 55mm $1,000 or $500 for some other version?
FA 45-85mm $700
FA 120mm $900
total $12,600 ($12,100)

Nikon d800e $3300
Nikon AF-S 24-70mm $2000 (although I'd probably get the cheaper 24-120mm as reviews of this lens on the d800 are good)
Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G $200 (yes! the cheap guy!)
Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G $500 (yes, not the more expensive 1.4 version)

Total $6,000

DIFFERENCE ~$6,000 for basic and a simple lens kit (maybe ~$4,000 diff for a used kit?)

Forgetting the debate about lenses for the time being, the simple question becomes is there something about the Pentax 645d image IQ that is really worth $6000? I live once and at this point in my life I can afford the 645d - BUT I have to actually see, in a large print, that the 645d really is superior to the d800e. If I can see the "magic" of the 645d then I probably start hunting for a used version or maybe Pentax lowers their price (I can't imagine that the Nikon d800e hasn't significantly hurt 645d sales). So until I see some real world comparisons I'm going to sit on the sidelines.

Anyways, It is great to have choices!
There you have it then. Buy the Nikon and start shooting!!!
05-09-2012, 11:49 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by veraikon Quote
sorry you have to subsitute the Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G and Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G in your list Nikon suggests the use of these lenses with the D800/D800E:
I was looking for trouble :evil: and controversy when I put these lenses in the list!! Ya, I know what Nikon recommends, but if you look at the tests that folks have done comparing the f /1.4G or f/1.8G of these two lenses, by f/4 - f/5.6 they are basically identical and crazy sharp! Just google this, there are lots of examples (and using the d800). With the 1.4 versions you get better construction and weather sealing. I do not care about bokeh!!!!!!!!! I included these two lenses to show that there are affordable lens alternatives for the d800 that perform similarly to high end Nikon or Zeiss (or damn, now I'm going to get slammed!!) when not used wide open.

This all gets back to the issue I am struggling with: will I be able to see "magic" in large prints using the 645d because of its larger CCD sensor. Will large prints made with the d800e be "dull" in comparison??

Cheers, Peter
05-09-2012, 12:18 PM   #41
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The D800E is practically impossible to get right now, so our comparative review of and the 645D is being postponed to August, FYI.

We will still be doing a D800 vs 5Dmk3 review in the meantime.

Adam
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05-09-2012, 10:17 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by EarthImage Quote
...
DIFFERENCE ~$6,000 for basic and a simple lens kit (maybe ~$4,000 diff for a used kit?)

... Anyways, It is great to have choices!

The more you add lenses, and the 645D line currently sold collection is numbering about 15 of them, the less will the difference be.

But I agree, choice is the best thing for us.
05-09-2012, 11:27 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by veraikon Quote
sorry you have to subsitute the Nikon AF-S 50mm f/1.8G and Nikon AF-S 85mm f/1.8G in your list
Nikon suggests the use of these lenses with the D800/D800E:

  • AF-S NIKKOR 1424 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 2470 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 70200 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 1635 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 24120 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 200400 mm f/4G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 24 mm f/1.4G ED
    AF-S NIKKOR 35 mm f/1.4G
    AF-S NIKKOR 85 mm f/1.4G
    AF-S NIKKOR 200 mm f/2G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 300 mm f/2.8G ED VR II
    AF-S NIKKOR 400 mm f/2.8G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 500 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S NIKKOR 600 mm f/4G ED VR
    AF-S Micro NIKKOR 60 mm f/2.8G ED
    AF-S VR Micro-Nikkor 105 mm f/2.8G IF-ED
source: Nikon D800 Technical Guide page 16

I suggest in subsitution a Carl Zeiss Makro Planar 2.0/50mm (1150 ) and a Carl Zeiss Makro Planar 2.0/100mm (1650 )

If you want reaonable price lenses for the D800, check out the Samyang lenses [14mm, 24mm, 35mm] and Sigmas [70mm, 150mm]. The CZ macro-planars are pretty sweet lenses.
05-10-2012, 12:22 AM   #44
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Because of the D800/E there is good opertunity to pick up used 645D's and lenses at a much better prices than last year if you choose that route.

Dan
05-10-2012, 12:22 PM - 1 Like   #45
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Interesting thread but some postings should be clarified. The Pentax 645d weighs about 970 grams, not much more than the 800e. The 55 and 75mm 645 primes are not any heavier than Nikon or Canon primes in that range, perhaps even lighter. The ergonomics of the 645d are superb and the 645d is weatherproof. I shot in a tropical downpour with my 645d with no ill effects other than trying to keep the lens dry. Also, other reviews and postings of 800/800e images pretty well confirm what MFD shooters already know....lenses without corner sharpness or CA problems stand out like a sore thumb. Not every FF Nikon lens in their catalog will be a candidate for use with the 800. But the Nikon does match the Kodak sensor in the 645d in terms of freedom from grunge and black noise in shadow areas. If you want to see some startling comparisons of the 800 and 5DmkIII, check out Fred Miranda's website for his comparison review.

Finally, I haven't noticed any increase in used 645d availability on the used market. If anything it would be an adjunct to a 645d rather than a replacement. If you judge IQ based simply on resolution charts, then you don't understand MF photography. But in as much as the 645d 25mm is over $5K, an 800e and a Zeiss 21mm would make a nice alternative, and a great backup. I seriously doubt many 645d shooters will be lured to the 800/e although many potential shooters who might have been tempted to move to MF may well elect to stay with FF 35mm DSLR.
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