Which one to get?

asahijock · 02-08-2013, 01:30 PM

It might be that the P645Nii has a system that when you re-insert the mid-roll insert it can remember which frame it was on when ejected but if not then what I think was being said is that on re-insertion the camera assumes that it has a new roll and therefore winds on as it would with a new roll so the loss of frames is appreciable and maybe if you were already on frame 12 it would wind on to, say, frame 15 and you might as well not have bothered to re-insert the mid-roll insert

As far as I am aware the P645N doesn't have any means of remembering which frame it was on when the insert was taken out mid-roll

What might work but it is cumbersome and requires a changing bag or darkroom is to remove the insert mid roll with the camera in the changing bag then release the spindles and handwind the roll back to the start. As long as you make a note of the frame it was on you can reload as if it was a fresh roll and fire with the cap on until you get to the frame which is one beyond where you had stopped to make sure there is no overlap.

I think this would work but if you were on or beyond frame 10-12 it might not be worth the effort

I have never tried any of this so it's just a theory. Anyone else care to comment on this issue of re-using a mid-roll insert ejection?

asahijock

**Digitalis** · 02-08-2013, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by asahijock

camera assumes that it has a new roll and therefore winds on as it would with a new roll

That is where the Multiple exposure feature is so useful, it should be able override the winding mechanism.

This is all largely academic, I still think the Pentax 67 would be the best way to go for this. Al0though I have never used the adapter to use 67 lenses on my 645, but knowing how those two systems work I don't think there would be many limitations apart from manual focus.

tuco · 02-08-2013, 09:16 PM

You want a "nice big negative". Arguably the 6x4.5 frame on a 120 roll is the APS-C of medium format film.

stevebrot · 02-08-2013, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by tuco

You want a "nice big negative". Arguably the 6x4.5 frame on a 120 roll is the APS-C of medium format film.

That was my impression when I had use of a 645N a year or so ago. I loved the camera and the way it handled and the viewfinder! Yes, the viewfinder! Unfortunately, I also had experience with the 6x7 format from the roll film holders I use with my view camera. Comparing the quality of the two and there is, well, no comparison. The 645 negative is noticeably better than 35mm in that grain pretty much disappears and skies are amazingly clean looking, but the incredible detail and tonality from the 6x7 negatives is simply not there.

I was incredibly sad. I loved the 645N. I wanted the 645N. I decided to not get the 645N. Does that mean I would get the 6x7/67? I don't know. It is a truly beasty-large camera. What I want is a 6x7 rangefinder like what Tuco has! (Or maybe a Bessa...)

Steve

JFN · 02-09-2013, 02:45 AM

Hmm, another interesting point to take into the calculation indeed!

Anyone else with experiences of the two different negative sizes who have further reflections regarding this?

I have no prefs really for the machine itself, the only thing that scared me about the 6x7 was the unreliability mentioned earlier in this discussion, and yeah, inserts for changing rolls sounds more convenient than having to roll up a new roll after 15 shots, but I guess that files under "habit adaptation" ..

Cheers
JF Felinik

stevebrot · 02-09-2013, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by JFN

new roll after 15 shots

15 on the 645...only 10 on the 6x7

Steve

wombat2go · 02-09-2013, 11:08 AM - **1 Like**

Hi JFN,
If you want to use P67 lenses, you are not necessarily restricted to a P67 body.
Maybe there is a Euro equivalent to this 4 by 5 that takes the international 120 back and has a lens board big enough for the P67 bayonet.
Here I get 8 shots of 6 by 9 . Actually this particular P67 lens covers 6 by 9 cm with reasonable corner sharpness, but they can be cropped back to the native 6 by 7 cm.
For hobby use, the bigger the negative is, the easier it is to maintain the fidelity whether scanning or enlarging.

Attached Images

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asahijock · 02-09-2013, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by Digitalis

That is where the Multiple exposure feature is so useful, it should be able override the winding mechanism.

Could you expand on this and how it works or are you like me and thinking things out in theory? If you have actually tried this and found it works that is great, hence my request for a fuller explanation. The 645, 645N and 645Nii are all great cameras but lack of interchangeable backs is a drawback. Any method which overcomes this or alleviates it is useful and certainly when making a choice of which camera to get it is in my opinion pertinent information

Thanks

asahijock

stevebrot · 02-09-2013, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by wombat2go

Maybe there is a Euro equivalent to this 4 by 5

You mean like the Speed Graphic with a focal plane shutter?

Steve

wombat2go · 02-09-2013, 01:14 PM

Yes, Steve, it would need a fp shutter and a lens board of at least 90 by 90 mm.
I don't know enough about euro large formats to know if there was ever such a thing, or how available the Speed Graphics are in EU.
I never used a P67 body but i imagine a Speed might actually be easier and more versatile after the learning curve, particularly on a tripod.

stevebrot · 02-09-2013, 01:15 PM

A small note regarding the inserts for the 645...Film load on these is extremely easy and fast. Truly!

I think the rational was that the photog on location (doing, say, a wedding) would have an assistant to help with gear. At end of roll the photog would do a quick switch of inserts and the assistant would keep busy keeping these loaded and ready for use.

If mid-roll switching is a requirement, there are other good cameras that support this feature.

Steve

tuco · 02-09-2013, 02:21 PM

I'd agree. If hot-swapping backs is an important feature, I'd investigate further.

Some generalities about MF film cameras is you need more than one if you want optimisation it seems. And if you find yourself committed to the medium for long term, you might want to think of your first purchase differently.

I think both a 645N and P6x7 would be good combo to have. Shoot 645 for the more dynamic situations and the 6x7 in when you have time for a more methodical approach. I approach shooting my Pentax 6x7 more like my 4x5. I strip the 6x7 down to a waist level finder ( batteries last for a very long time then), usually use a tripod and meter with a one-degree spot meter. When that is too slow, I reach for another camera.

desertscape · 02-09-2013, 03:31 PM

JFN- Your concerns about the reliability of the 67 are unwarranted unless you buy a well used one. Just get a mint 67 or 67II- not a problem.

JFN · 02-09-2013, 04:19 PM

Very nice, the large format thingie there, though I think I'll probably stick to the other ones, and after following the discussion here I kind of feel that maybe the 67 is the way to go after all!

So, differences, 6x7, 67, 67II ?

Thanks guys!!!

Cheers
JF Felinik

**gofour3** · 02-09-2013, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by JFN

Very nice, the large format thingie there, though I think I'll probably stick to the other ones, and after following the discussion here I kind of feel that maybe the 67 is the way to go after all!

So, differences, 6x7, 67, 67II ?

Thanks guys!!!

Cheers
JF Felinik

I would read the PF reviews of each 6x7 body:

Pentax 6x7 Medium Format - Pentax Pentax Film Cameras - Pentax Camera Reviews and Specifications

If you like all manual cameras then go for the 67, if you are used to DSLR's then the 67II might be better for you. Just note that the 6x7 & 67 use a different TTL metered prism than the 67II.

Phil.

02-08-2013, 07:14 PM	#17
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by asahijock camera assumes that it has a new roll and therefore winds on as it would with a new roll That is where the Multiple exposure feature is so useful, it should be able override the winding mechanism. This is all largely academic, I still think the Pentax 67 would be the best way to go for this. Al0though I have never used the adapter to use 67 lenses on my 645, but knowing how those two systems work I don't think there would be many limitations apart from manual focus. Last edited by Digitalis; 02-08-2013 at 07:19 PM.

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02-08-2013, 01:30 PM	#16
asahijock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Northants, England Posts: 167	It might be that the P645Nii has a system that when you re-insert the mid-roll insert it can remember which frame it was on when ejected but if not then what I think was being said is that on re-insertion the camera assumes that it has a new roll and therefore winds on as it would with a new roll so the loss of frames is appreciable and maybe if you were already on frame 12 it would wind on to, say, frame 15 and you might as well not have bothered to re-insert the mid-roll insert As far as I am aware the P645N doesn't have any means of remembering which frame it was on when the insert was taken out mid-roll What might work but it is cumbersome and requires a changing bag or darkroom is to remove the insert mid roll with the camera in the changing bag then release the spindles and handwind the roll back to the start. As long as you make a note of the frame it was on you can reload as if it was a fresh roll and fire with the cap on until you get to the frame which is one beyond where you had stopped to make sure there is no overlap. I think this would work but if you were on or beyond frame 10-12 it might not be worth the effort I have never tried any of this so it's just a theory. Anyone else care to comment on this issue of re-using a mid-roll insert ejection? asahijock

02-08-2013, 09:16 PM	#18
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	You want a "nice big negative". Arguably the 6x4.5 frame on a 120 roll is the APS-C of medium format film.

02-08-2013, 10:50 PM	#19
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by tuco You want a "nice big negative". Arguably the 6x4.5 frame on a 120 roll is the APS-C of medium format film. That was my impression when I had use of a 645N a year or so ago. I loved the camera and the way it handled and the viewfinder! Yes, the viewfinder! Unfortunately, I also had experience with the 6x7 format from the roll film holders I use with my view camera. Comparing the quality of the two and there is, well, no comparison. The 645 negative is noticeably better than 35mm in that grain pretty much disappears and skies are amazingly clean looking, but the incredible detail and tonality from the 6x7 negatives is simply not there. I was incredibly sad. I loved the 645N. I wanted the 645N. I decided to not get the 645N. Does that mean I would get the 6x7/67? I don't know. It is a truly beasty-large camera. What I want is a 6x7 rangefinder like what Tuco has! (Or maybe a Bessa...) Steve

02-09-2013, 02:45 AM	#20
JFN Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Golfe du Lion Photos: Gallery Posts: 362 Original Poster	Hmm, another interesting point to take into the calculation indeed! Anyone else with experiences of the two different negative sizes who have further reflections regarding this? I have no prefs really for the machine itself, the only thing that scared me about the 6x7 was the unreliability mentioned earlier in this discussion, and yeah, inserts for changing rolls sounds more convenient than having to roll up a new roll after 15 shots, but I guess that files under "habit adaptation" .. Cheers JF Felinik

02-09-2013, 10:30 AM	#21
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by JFN new roll after 15 shots 15 on the 645...only 10 on the 6x7 Steve

02-09-2013, 12:13 PM	#23
asahijock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Northants, England Posts: 167	Originally posted by Digitalis That is where the Multiple exposure feature is so useful, it should be able override the winding mechanism. Could you expand on this and how it works or are you like me and thinking things out in theory? If you have actually tried this and found it works that is great, hence my request for a fuller explanation. The 645, 645N and 645Nii are all great cameras but lack of interchangeable backs is a drawback. Any method which overcomes this or alleviates it is useful and certainly when making a choice of which camera to get it is in my opinion pertinent information Thanks asahijock

02-09-2013, 01:09 PM	#24
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by wombat2go Maybe there is a Euro equivalent to this 4 by 5 You mean like the Speed Graphic with a focal plane shutter? Steve

02-09-2013, 01:14 PM	#25
wombat2go Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Michigan Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	Yes, Steve, it would need a fp shutter and a lens board of at least 90 by 90 mm. I don't know enough about euro large formats to know if there was ever such a thing, or how available the Speed Graphics are in EU. I never used a P67 body but i imagine a Speed might actually be easier and more versatile after the learning curve, particularly on a tripod.

02-09-2013, 01:15 PM	#26
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	A small note regarding the inserts for the 645...Film load on these is extremely easy and fast. Truly! I think the rational was that the photog on location (doing, say, a wedding) would have an assistant to help with gear. At end of roll the photog would do a quick switch of inserts and the assistant would keep busy keeping these loaded and ready for use. If mid-roll switching is a requirement, there are other good cameras that support this feature. Steve

02-09-2013, 02:21 PM	#27
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,026	I'd agree. If hot-swapping backs is an important feature, I'd investigate further. Some generalities about MF film cameras is you need more than one if you want optimisation it seems. And if you find yourself committed to the medium for long term, you might want to think of your first purchase differently. I think both a 645N and P6x7 would be good combo to have. Shoot 645 for the more dynamic situations and the 6x7 in when you have time for a more methodical approach. I approach shooting my Pentax 6x7 more like my 4x5. I strip the 6x7 down to a waist level finder ( batteries last for a very long time then), usually use a tripod and meter with a one-degree spot meter. When that is too slow, I reach for another camera.

02-09-2013, 03:31 PM	#28
desertscape Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,272	JFN- Your concerns about the reliability of the 67 are unwarranted unless you buy a well used one. Just get a mint 67 or 67II- not a problem.

02-09-2013, 04:19 PM	#29
JFN Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Golfe du Lion Photos: Gallery Posts: 362 Original Poster	Very nice, the large format thingie there, though I think I'll probably stick to the other ones, and after following the discussion here I kind of feel that maybe the 67 is the way to go after all! So, differences, 6x7, 67, 67II ? Thanks guys!!! Cheers JF Felinik

02-09-2013, 04:41 PM	#30
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,090	Originally posted by JFN Very nice, the large format thingie there, though I think I'll probably stick to the other ones, and after following the discussion here I kind of feel that maybe the 67 is the way to go after all! So, differences, 6x7, 67, 67II ? Thanks guys!!! Cheers JF Felinik I would read the PF reviews of each 6x7 body: Pentax 6x7 Medium Format - Pentax Pentax Film Cameras - Pentax Camera Reviews and Specifications If you like all manual cameras then go for the 67, if you are used to DSLR's then the 67II might be better for you. Just note that the 6x7 & 67 use a different TTL metered prism than the 67II. Phil.