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07-18-2013, 03:43 PM   #1
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P67 film loading - Blank first frame?

Hi All,

Things are generally going well with my 'new' P67, however after half a dozen rolls a couple have a blank frame at the beginning of the roll (giving only 9 shots). The frame spacing is good and consistent throughout the roll and the other rolls have ten exposures at the same spacing so it must be related to my loading technique.

Is there anything I'm inadvertently doing wrong? I have so far always lined the 'Start' arrows of the film and back, up, although on some occasions this has left the wind lever mid-stroke when I closed the back, could it be connected with this?

Any ideas?

John.

07-18-2013, 10:53 PM   #2
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The position of the wind-on lever has no bearing on what happens when the back is closed when the START line matches the 120 arrow on the film chamber rails. Once the START line is in position, irrespective of the wind-on lever's position, close the back and wind on until the counter reaches 1. When the film is correctly loaded and wound on, the tension will increase and the shutter will be cocked ready for the first exposure. Check the dial actually shows 1 and not 0 or 2. Also check the 'switch' on the inside of the cover is set to 120 and not 220.

I would surmise it is your loading technique rather than a fault with the camera. My first loads saw me with 9 frames too. If you have a dud roll of film somewhere (don't we all!?) use that to practice the technique (yes, I know it is fiddly!). If in the event you still end up with 9 frames, it's time to bang heads and brainstorm!
07-21-2013, 05:33 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
Is there anything I'm inadvertently doing wrong? I have so far always lined the 'Start' arrows of the film and back, up, although on some occasions this has left the wind lever mid-stroke when I closed the back, could it be connected with this?
The cam that allows the shutter to fire should allow the first shot when the dial turns to the immediate dot after the zero/zed/orange O mark. If the lever is allowed to continue to the second dot, then a loose part is not matching up with that cam. This cam is cut and positioned to allow the shutter to engage and disengage for the first shot and if the selector is at 10 or 20 shots.


QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
however after half a dozen rolls a couple have a blank frame at the beginning of the roll (giving only 9 shots)
Some other questions...
1. Is every stroke of the lever the same or is it rough as you get to the first frame and smooth the rest... this question is especial referring to the rolls that are 9 shots.
2. Is it that the times associated with the blank frame one is that the sound of the shutter is different?
3. Does it seem that the blank frames coincides with times the P67 was not used for a great length of time?
4. When you advance and stop at frame 1, then you gently try to pull the lever and advance further that you hear a crunching sound?
5. Testing with an empty camera and setting it to dry fire, if you set the counter to 1,2,3 and no higher and then open the back after firing the shutter, does the counter lazily return back to the start position?
6. Does the counter show while the back is open that the start position is greater than at rest in the 12 o'clock position?
07-22-2013, 10:50 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by MysteryOnion Quote
The cam that allows the shutter to fire should allow the first shot when the dial turns to the immediate dot after the zero/zed/orange O mark. If the lever is allowed to continue to the second dot, then a loose part is not matching up with that cam. This cam is cut and positioned to allow the shutter to engage and disengage for the first shot and if the selector is at 10 or 20 shots.




Some other questions...
1. Is every stroke of the lever the same or is it rough as you get to the first frame and smooth the rest... this question is especial referring to the rolls that are 9 shots.
2. Is it that the times associated with the blank frame one is that the sound of the shutter is different?
3. Does it seem that the blank frames coincides with times the P67 was not used for a great length of time?
4. When you advance and stop at frame 1, then you gently try to pull the lever and advance further that you hear a crunching sound?
5. Testing with an empty camera and setting it to dry fire, if you set the counter to 1,2,3 and no higher and then open the back after firing the shutter, does the counter lazily return back to the start position?
6. Does the counter show while the back is open that the start position is greater than at rest in the 12 o'clock position?
Thanks for the comments, the two 120/220 selectors are both set to '120', one of my problems is that the orange dot on the counter runs in-between the white lines and I'm not sure how to read it. The lever winds smoothly to the point where the end of the last 'loading' stroke where the tension comes on to cock the shutter - although on one occaision I seemed to recall it may have done this twice - my second roll so I wasn't familiar with the feel of it then. I'm still not sure of the feel and often think the roll has finished a shot earlier than it has - due to feeling/hearing some 'ripple' in the film as it nears the end.

My currently loaded film has had two shots (shutter releases), the orange dot is pretty much centred between the 2nd & 3rd white lines - is this counting 2 or 3?

As for MysteryOnion's other questions:
1) As the shutter cocks for the first time the tension comes on, all the others feel similar apart from the 'ripple' (mentioned above) when advancing from frame 9 - the tension then comes off as just the backing paper winds on.
2) Not noticably - I don't think it's the shutter not exposing the film.
3) No, the first 6 rolls went through in less than a week - only two were affected. Obviously the camera hadn't been used for a long until that point.
4) The few times I've tried it no.
5) & 6) Not sure - it's currently loaded.

I've figured out that at the end of the roll the frame counter stops counting when the backing paper is completely wound round the take-up spool. Therefore I should be able to see what it counts to at the end of a roll and that should indicate whether an extra blank frame has been wound-on before the first exposure - I need to start taking more detailed notes.

Part of my problem is unfamiliarity with the 'feel' for the advance and not taking enough notes as to what I expect my final frame to be. I think the shutter is always released ten times in a roll - just occaisionally the last one is after the film has finished.

Regards,

John.

07-23-2013, 07:24 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
...one of my problems is that the orange dot on the counter runs in-between the white lines...
It helps to diagnose if the counter is lined up, so if you have a fine flat tip driver or jeweler's driver, there are three screws that hold the counter dial face down. If you loosen, but not remove and then you can rotate the dial face to line it back up with the very first dot... do this when empty.

I forgot to ask if the body was CLA'd any time recently? A few things happen when to allow the first frame to fire. If the synchronization of the main advance gear is not set right or the "duality prevent" lever is not engage in the right point, the shutter will not do what it is supposed to do. Also, if the shutter clutch is not lubed or trip levers are sticking and then curtain 1 or 2 will misbehave.

I also want to check...
QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
have a blank frame at the beginning of the roll (giving only 9 shots). The frame spacing is good and consistent throughout the roll and the other rolls have ten exposures
... so when you are looking at the negative, that the first frame is clear and the rest of the nine spaces are "good and consistent". Or... that the negative's first frame is black and the rest of the nine... etc?
07-23-2013, 10:51 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by MysteryOnion Quote
It helps to diagnose if the counter is lined up, so if you have a fine flat tip driver or jeweler's driver, there are three screws that hold the counter dial face down. If you loosen, but not remove and then you can rotate the dial face to line it back up with the very first dot... do this when empty.

I forgot to ask if the body was CLA'd any time recently? A few things happen when to allow the first frame to fire. If the synchronization of the main advance gear is not set right or the "duality prevent" lever is not engage in the right point, the shutter will not do what it is supposed to do. Also, if the shutter clutch is not lubed or trip levers are sticking and then curtain 1 or 2 will misbehave.

I also want to check...
... so when you are looking at the negative, that the first frame is clear and the rest of the nine spaces are "good and consistent". Or... that the negative's first frame is black and the rest of the nine... etc?
Thanks MysteryOnion,

I'll have a look at the frame counter when it's empty - presume this is to line up the dot with the orange '0' mark?

I've only recently acquired the camera and doubt it has been CLA'd recently - at the moment I'm concentrating on my film loading as it has been fine for four of the six rolls so far.

The first frame of the (chrome) film is black (un-exposed), this is also the first shot I've taken, so it's advancing the film one frame too far during loading. The shutter looks like it's behaving - consistent exposures which more or less match my metering.
07-23-2013, 11:08 AM   #7
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Well, I hope it might have been needing some exercise to get working and may only randomly blank. The key is that it is the first frame and could be that one of the levers or armatures is sticking and not fully engaging until the second frame.

Good luck and I enjoy that P67... great camera!


Quick view for sake of information about the busy bit that regulate the frames...
\
... and the toothed wheels top and next one do the frame stops. The metal finger foreground is what engages and disengages for 10 or 20 and stop as well.

Last edited by MysteryOnion; 07-23-2013 at 11:14 AM.
07-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #8
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For what it's worth - I've also only ever got 9 frames from my Pentax 67.

Same as you, the first frame is always blank. My frame spacing is a little irregular though, so I always just had it down as a mechanical fault. Cheaper to shoot 9 frames per roll than a CLA!

Also, my frame counter doesn't line up properly, so thanks for the tip MysteryOnion.

07-27-2013, 02:40 PM   #9
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If I had this problem, I would try winding the 120 film to a point before the designated arrow for 120. Close the back as soon as you can see the arrows on the paper backing appear. Set the "film type" button on the side of the camera to 220 before you put film in it. Shoot to the 12th frame just to make sure you have exposed all the film. The rest of the frames, 13-20 will be shot with no film at the focal plane, so just cycle it through. This might work but might not also.
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