[Buffy]

Personally, I think the choice between 67 and 645 boils down to the matter of weight, and the choice between a 645 and 645N is whether or not you want/need autofocus. If neither weight nor autofocus is a issue, I'd say go with the 67.

[revdocjim]

Weight is indeed a key factor.
As for the 645 vs 645n question my take is slightly different. I have owned 6 or 7 P 645 (original) bodies and then upgraded to the 645n. I think the 645n is vastly superior to the original body but not because of the AF. In fact all my lenses are manual focus and I'm not really interested in getting the more expensive autofocus lenses. There are so many other ways in which the 645n is better.
Brighter view finder
Greatly improved ergonomics
Focus indicator in viewfinder
Exposure data imprinting on negative
16 frames per roll vs. 15

All in all, I just like the 645n way better, although every time I see a cheap 645 (original) I seem to have trouble resisting the temptation to pick it up. (I currently have two sitting around in my office!)
The only reason I would recommend the 645 (original) is if the OP is on an extremely tight budget. Here in Tokyo relatively clean ones in normal working condition can be had for under $100 and the lenses tend to run about $100 or less except for the specialty lenses like the 35mm, the extra long teles and the zooms.

[Smolk]

+1 Although I still have 2 FA lenses, the 645N is coupled mostly to my 3 A lenses and one 67 lens (4/55mm, effectively A as well). The brighter view finder (yes it is noticeable), the ergonomics, but also 1/3 stops, all add to a better working experience. The 645 may be more rugged, though.

[germar]

Get an old 6x7 /67 body and a swag of lenses, ditch the meter (if it has one) and skill up on multispot/incident/duplex/additive-subtractive/split-base metering.

Since the OP seems to have gotten some excellent feedback on his question, please allow me to ask an off topic follow up: I understand multispot and incident metering, but I've never heard of duplex, additive-subtractive and split-base metering. Google searches takes me to pages on color theory and water pumps!

I'm admitting my ignorance to try to learn ... can you point me to some pages on what these techniques are, or am I missing some insider humor here?

Thanks.

Edit---- um, no response on my question after a few days. I guess the other metering "modes" mentioned was just bullshitting the newbie OP? Kinda uncool, Silent Street.

---

Last edited by germar; 09-27-2013 at 05:20 AM. Reason: further comment

[asahijock]

, but I've never heard of duplex, additive-subtractive and split-base metering. Google searches takes me to pages on color theory and water pumps!

I'm admitting my ignorance to try to learn ... can you point me to some pages on what these techniques are, or am I missing some insider humor here?

Thanks.

Edit---- um, no response on my question after a few days. I guess the other metering "modes" mentioned was just bullshitting the newbie OP? Kinda uncool, Silent Street.

I too would like to hear about these kinds of metering. These are new concepts to me

Maybe as there are now two of us wanting to be educated we'll get a response

asahijock

[gabro822]

Hello and sorry if I reply now (university esams took all of my time), but I've read everything you wrote and I would thank you for your help.

Thank you for the developing tips Revdocjim, but I've a Paterson and considering I'm new in digital developing, I would like to start with this instead of steel reels. (and I've to search on youtube to understand where the negative was in the 120 film )

I was looking right now for a 645n in great working condition, but I wasn't 100% sure on it. I really don't know if it is only the addiction to buy something new (67 or 645) or my deside to have big 6x7 negatives.
Looking on Flickr, I've found many P67 users with great images in their portfolio and reading on the web, the P67 was described as one of the best medium format camera. Maybe this pushed me to think I wanted the 67.

At this point I will search for Pentax 645 images in order to have an idea of what we are talking about. In fact I would like to ask you: but the difference in negative images is really big? (ok, sorry for the stupid question, I'm able to make the comparison between 6cm and 4,5cm, but what I would like to know is if there is a real difference among them in term of image quality).
For the point you have underline, the focus indicator is an important help. And the fact that there is AF, although AF lenses are expensive, would be a nice thing.

Thank you in advance for your reply!
Gabriele

[revdocjim]

In Japan the Pentax 645 line (all three models) was probably the most popular camera ever among landscape, nature scenery photographers. The images can easily be printed up to most any size commonly used. A3 is no problem at all, and even bigger. Of course at some point the 6x7 film will offer an advantage in terms of image resolution but for most applications it's hard to tell the difference. Probably the more significant difference has to do with the shape of 6x7 vs. 645. Of course cropping is always an option but when it comes to the 6x7 image shape people tend to love it or hate it. By comparison the 645 images are similar to most 35mm and apsc images whereas the 6x7 is closer to square. Personally, I love it! Also there is a difference in DOF between the two formats that will be a significant factor for many types of photography.

[atlnq9]

I think it comes down to just a few things.

If you want AF then Pentax 645N. AF may be a benefit to your street photography plus there is a large lens selection.

If you want compact as possible look at the Fuji rangefinders (fixed lenses though). Compact would also be a big plus.

If you want compact with interchangeable lenses then go with Mamiya 7. Very compact and superb image quality.

If you want heavy with a good lens selection from wide to tele then go with the Pentax 67. Great but I don't think so for your purposes. Too heavy. If you want larger than the 6x4.5 then look at the above two options.

[revdocjim]

Some sound advice by atlnq9, although my personal preference would be toward the Mamiya 6 over the Mamiya 7. It is considerably more compact since the lenses retract into the body when not in use. Furthermore, as strange as it sounds, I like the fact that there are only 3 lenses. And especially nice is the fact that none of them require external viewfinders. The border in the built in viewfinder automatically adjusts with each lens, and parallax comp is built in as well. I really like my 6 and don't really see myself moving to the 7 at any point.

[asahijock]

I cannot say what the price difference is in Italy where the OP lives but my impression is that in the U.K. the difference appears to have narrowed to the point where the saving in buying a P645 compared to a P645N is small and is outweighed by the benefits of the P645N as has been highlighted above in other posts.

OP I think both big medium format dealers in the U.K. called Mifsuds and Ffordes will sell into Europe. Have a look at their websites.

asahijock

[atlnq9]

Some sound advice by atlnq9, although my personal preference would be toward the Mamiya 6 over the Mamiya 7. It is considerably more compact since the lenses retract into the body when not in use. Furthermore, as strange as it sounds, I like the fact that there are only 3 lenses. And especially nice is the fact that none of them require external viewfinders. The border in the built in viewfinder automatically adjusts with each lens, and parallax comp is built in as well. I really like my 6 and don't really see myself moving to the 7 at any point.

Yes the retracting lenses of the Mamiya 6 is a big advantage. I don't know how the price compares now but 10yrs ago when I bought my 7 I would have paid double for an equivalent condition 6. Even more so of an advantage are the folding 6x7 cameras. Although they are quite expensive now. I think the newish Fuji 67 comes in at about the same price as the good old used 67 folders.

Fujifilm GF670 Rangefinder Folding Camera 16019089 B&H Photo

I am just saying don't restrict yourself to just Pentax. I had the Pentax 645N, 67, and Mamiya 7 at the same time and used them for different purposes. From what it sounds a rangefinder will likely suit you better. I use to use the Mamiya a lot for long hikes and mountaineering/climbing photography. Something where I needed a light medium format camera I could carry all day and handhold... For times when I needed AF I used the 645N and when I needed longer lenses I used the 67.

[poppaneedsanap]

I've been thinking of grabbing an MF camera as well. I'm in the same boat here, vacillating between P645n and P67. Can't make up my miiiiind.
Then I got going on the whole mamiya 6/7 systems and Universal Press cameras and got nicely confused. There are a few of these bodies available locally from an old camera store guy on kijiji... I also mostly shoot street and off-the-cuff stuff for fun so I'm sort of leaning towards P645n and a nice widey like the 35mm.

The wood handle for the 6x7 and look of the Universal press camera really does it for me.
Around and around we gooooo, trying to burn off some of this GAS

[tuco]

I've been thinking of grabbing an MF camera as well. I'm in the same boat here, vacillating between P645n and P67. Can't make up my miiiiind.
Then I got going on the whole mamiya 6/7 systems and Universal Press cameras and got nicely confused. There are a few of these bodies available locally from an old camera store guy on kijiji... I also mostly shoot street and off-the-cuff stuff for fun so I'm sort of leaning towards P645n and a nice widey like the 35mm.

It's hard to have one medium format film camera be all encompassing. That's why many end up with more than one. For street shooting either a rangefinder or 645n is a good choice. Rangefinders are quite, generally light and come in many negative sizes. Rangefinder lenses are comparatively small too. But there are some downsides to a rangefinder ( macro, telephoto and using CPL filters conveniently for example).

The 645n is a good choice if you want a more modern camera more like 35mm SLR style of shooting. The Pentax 645 has a large array of lenses from wide to telephoto to select from too.

The Penax 6x7 is much like an over-sized K1000 in operation. If you use a metered prism, you have basically the same metering needle design, shutter and aperture control as a K1000, I mean. It can do street but not as quietly and conveniently ( you'll be changing film rolls more often).

I don't try and make my Pentax 6x7 into a handhold 35mm SLR style camera. I have others for that but instead take the opposite approach. I shoot it more like a 4x5 view camera. I put on a waist level finder, use a one-degree spot meter, devote rolls to special film processing (eg highlight compression) and put it on a tripod more often than not. The 6x7 negative size scans pretty good on a commodity scanners too.

Best wishes on your choice.

[Fritzenpapa]

I own cameras out of both systems. I bought the 645N and 645, because I wanted to make good nature photographs on a trip to India. Most important to me was the TTL-feature, that is hardly found in the Mediumformat-world. I used it for frogs (120 mm Macro, three extension tubes, with a TTL-Ringlightstrobe Sunpak DX12R) and lizards ("old" 6x7 300mm, three extension tubes, with AF-280T). When I came back home, I was infected by the Pentax-Mediumformat-Addiction and I decided to get a 6x7. Luckily, I already owned a 6x7 lens as mentioned above. Let me sum up my personal pros and cons:

645 (the N version is "stronger" in terms of the listed advantages, but seems to be more sensible; mine refused working for no reason after the first TTL-flash use and recovered miraculesly after two weeks and is working flawlessly ever since; I don´t know why; nothing similar happened to my 645 allthough it is looking more sensible then the N)
Pros: TTL with 1/60 sec; automatic exposure when needed, motor, easily and quickly loaded. It can be used just as any 35mm film camera; not much bigger, same handling- motor- AE- and TTL- features. Big Pro: Can be adapted easily to Pentax 6x7 lenses - upgrading to the 6x7 format does not necessarily mean you have to buy new lenses. Can be easily adapted to lenses for the Pentacon Six - mount: cheap great lenses from Carl Zeiss Jena, Meyer-Görlitz, Jupiter and Arsat availible; among them great lenses such as the Pentacon 5,6 500mm (much better then the Pentax 67 500mm!), the Carl Zeiss Jena 180mm (best portrait lens on the market in my eyes!) and the Arsat 30mm (cheapest fisheye in the MF world) etc. When you plan to use the 6x6 format in adition to the 6x4,5, you can buy a cheap Pentacon Six TL- or Kiev 60- body without needing extra lenses/you can use the same lenses with two different cameras systems.
Cons: Just the "small" 6x4,5 format. But that´s not a true Con....

6x7; 67; 67II (I don´t know the II yet)
Pro: Great 6x7 size, but much better to use and transport in the nature then the RB 67 (I own this one aswell). I had it on a 3000m above sealevel hike in the alps last month - no problem to put and to carry it in a backpack! The "later" TTL metering (not the 6x7 - Cds- but the 67 and above TTL finder) works very well, even the 67 non II meter. Best (or should I say "only"?) "big" MF-Camera for nature photography. I had no problem with blurred photos by mirror- or shutter vibration so far.
Cons: WHY on earth wa Pentax NOT able or willing through almost FOURTY YEARS to upgrade the 6x7/67 line to some motorized filmtransport??? Mamiya was... Biggest disadvantage in my eyes! Filmloading is a pain compared to the 645/645N; you have to sit down, you really need time and rest, free from hurry; or you might unroll and thus fogg/destroy the film or even damage the shutter or the transport mechanism....

Fazit:
I am happy to own both and I LOVE my 6x7 for it´s big size (while I "hate" Pentax for never adding a Motor); it´s the only 6x7 camera I can use when shooting my favourite subjects: My children and nature, especially animals. The TTL-feature makes my 645/645N to my most importand macro tool. I only bought the (excellent!) 120mm Macro lens out of the 645 lenses; all my other lenses (300mm ED-IF; 35mm Fisheye, 3,5/55mm, 2,4/104mm) are 6x7/67 - lenses, that my 6x7 has to share with it´s small brothers. I had some lenses for the Pentacon Six / Kiev-System (Pentacon/Meyer-Görlitz 300mm, Carl Zeiss Jena 180mm, Enna München 400mm) aswell and used them with great results on my 645/645N, but had to sell them in order to get the money for buying 6x7-lenses. I regret having been forced to sell them, because they worked very well via a cheap adapter (I can share a link to a good working one, when needed) on my 645/645N. Did I mention, that the Carl Zeiss Jena 180 is just great? :-)

My advice: If you get a 645/645N - don´t buy 645 - lenses, but equip it entirely with 6x7 - lenses! They are cheaper mostly. And if you should upgrade to the 6x7 -system (I even recommend using both cameras), you can use the lenses with both cameras. It´s not possible the other way round. The original Pentax made adapter is expensive when used and horribly expensive when new. But you might choose the Adapter made by Fotodiox. It works great for me and I got mine for 90 USD brandnew from Amazone.

[desreef]

Hi Gabriele,
Just like many people I decided to go back to film and the main thing I did observe is that it just slow me down taking pictures which is a good thing. I have been dreaming to go MF since the longest time after all my first camera ( plastic Diana) in 1967 was a MF. So last February I took the plunge and decide to acquire a 645N. The 645N is a very nice camera to handle and perfect for street shooting, it is not too big not too heavy and hold very well in my hands. I did buy my 645N on Ebay from a reputable seller from Japan from which I bought 2 lenses since. The photo equipment found on Ebay from Japan is for the most part of very good quality , I could not get anything on the local market ( Montreal) of equal quality for the price .
Good Luck !