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11-11-2013, 12:08 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The D800 is a good camera, no doubt about it, but as I said before, the true test of these cameras is real world shooting. And in this, there is just an amazing rendering of tones/color by medium format digital, that is unrivaled at this point by full frame cameras. I just think pixel peeping doesn't tell you about real life performance.

Sharpness is plenty good with both cameras and that is really all that you can judge from these test scenes.
This is a rather strange position to take imo.

I'm reminded of the times where controlled testing is lacking, at which point, people will inevitably reference said lack of controlled testing(see: DxO Mark etc). However, in this case, we end-up with the exact opposite, as people tend to wave away controlled testing in favor of field examples.

Needless to say, we needn't appeal to unsubstantial field claims to draw our conclusions given that both systems have been thoroughly measured(see: Imaging Review, DPReview RAW studio samples, DxOMark, etc). And so I can't help but feel as though such arguments are more of a discussion primer than anything at this stage.

11-11-2013, 12:23 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonny1986 Quote
there will be for me and you...everybody is buying the a7...i have seen all the gallery from sony a7r and every time the same...clarity far behind, poor tonality smoothness...harsh contrast.....and most of all zero 3d feeling,, the contour of subject looks always jagged while with 645d it seems well defined...
for me the only 35 mm camera , apse or ff, that has the real medium format characteristic and produce at least at base iso comparable images, with less resolution, are the merril from sigma both the sd1 and the compact. i will take them every day against d800e and a7. and i don't care about dxi rating or imaging resource test....i want see real photo with natural light with a 28 mm lenses.
look the official sony gallery of a7r a7...those who say these are better than 645d images must go to optics center.
I'd say it's likely to early to draw any firm conclusions on the A7R's performance at this current time. ie, the system being rather new and the yet, limited lens performance testing that will follow as the dust settles around it. That being said, I also think there's a massive void following the introduction of the FF mirorless system as technology continues to progress. Which will likely evolve rapidly given Sony's track record for advancement.

As for tonality, smoothness, contrast etc. I've yet to see anything to suggest the 36mp FF sensor can't match or exceed the 40mp MF sensor within the normal to telephoto range. Which I think DxO Mark supports in it's measurements. To which I'd add, is rather substantial if/when we consider the vast amounts of shooting taking place within those particular focal lengths.
11-11-2013, 01:03 PM   #78
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well this sample n my opinion show exactly why I'm not at all impressed by the d800 and most of the glass. apart we don't have any crop in the corner so valuation are impossible...look my sample...the 3d the corner sharper the rendering the tone..the sky free of noise...
in your sample i se resolution and good dynamic...just this. they are k5 quality at 36 million pixel instead of 16.
i don't see 3d rendering depth.

in addiction the lens show ca even stopped down, and the 14 distortion is terrible, problem well known for the samyang. the d800 is an all around camera but for me the 645d and eventhe merril create an image quality that is not in the file of the cmos sony sensor....and i'm not talking about resolution, that is my last problem.
simply when i see the file ou posted they scream digital. the ccd file i see everyday have good transition between analog and digital...the sharpness and contrast of digital with the smooth transition of film.
11-11-2013, 01:17 PM   #79
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Everything you've written remains subjective at this stage of the discussion.
Which in turn, means that there are no ways to ever settle anything under the current set of terms(sorry). Which is precisely why controlled testing becomes so vital in such cases.
To which I'd add, what does DxO Mark have to say on the D800E's tonal range vs the 645D?

That being said, I see little point in continuing down such a path myself given that your argument requires that we ignore measurement data in favor of your own views. Which isn't very likely to ever amount for anything beyond that of personal opinions.

However, I'd also add that I remain interested in seeing some controlled tests in the normal to telephoto range between both systems myself. Not so much, so as to defend any specific mount(ownership etc) but moreso along the lines of substantiating where the newer 36mp FF sensor stands in referance to the now older 40mp MF sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by jonny1986 Quote
well this sample n my opinion show exactly why I'm not at all impressed by the d800 and most of the glass. apart we don't have any crop in the corner so valuation are impossible...look my sample...the 3d the corner sharper the rendering the tone..the sky free of noise...
in your sample i se resolution and good dynamic...just this. they are k5 quality at 36 million pixel instead of 16.
i don't see 3d rendering depth.

in addiction the lens show ca even stopped down, and the 14 distortion is terrible, problem well known for the samyang. the d800 is an all around camera but for me the 645d and eventhe merril create an image quality that is not in the file of the cmos sony sensor....and i'm not talking about resolution, that is my last problem.
simply when i see the file ou posted they scream digital. the ccd file i see everyday have good transition between analog and digital...the sharpness and contrast of digital with the smooth transition of film.



Last edited by JohnBee; 11-11-2013 at 01:39 PM.
11-11-2013, 02:28 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
This is a rather strange position to take imo.

I'm reminded of the times where controlled testing is lacking, at which point, people will inevitably reference said lack of controlled testing(see: DxO Mark etc). However, in this case, we end-up with the exact opposite, as people tend to wave away controlled testing in favor of field examples.

Needless to say, we needn't appeal to unsubstantial field claims to draw our conclusions given that both systems have been thoroughly measured(see: Imaging Review, DPReview RAW studio samples, DxOMark, etc). And so I can't help but feel as though such arguments are more of a discussion primer than anything at this stage.
Both are great cameras. I think we are straining at gnats here. You certainly aren't going to tell a difference at web sizes and maybe not at normal print sizes either. You said yourself, though, that you thought that rendering of red color seemed to be better between the 645 and the D800. It is always hard for me to know how much of images that are produced is secondary to the skill of the photographer and how much is due to an amazing sensor, but those who use the 645D seem to get amazing landscape photos.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/48-pentax-645d-medium-format/139755-my-fi...ghts-645d.html
11-12-2013, 06:04 AM   #81
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Actually the cost at Henry's right now is about 7K. A little more than twice the cost of a D800, and was on sale for 6 k a while ago.

Last edited by normhead; 11-12-2013 at 08:24 AM.
11-12-2013, 09:37 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Actually the cost at Henry's right now is about 7K. A little more than twice the cost of a D800, and was on sale for 6 k a while ago.
I'd take one 645D over two D800 s any day.
11-19-2013, 10:28 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by jonny1986 Quote
at a party or to snap some photos i won't even consider the a7...is not so portable the lenses are bulky and the af will be pretty mediocre.
I doubt that will be the case. The A7 has a phase-detect AF system, so it should perform much more like a DSLR than most mirrorless cameras. Take a peek at the Fuji X100s, which has one as well. Apart from some teething issues at release (fixed in firmware), nowadays it's viewed as very fast and accurate.

It's also smaller than bodies that people clearly have no problem using at the present moment. It's roughly as wide and tall as a K-5 and half the thickness. I have an APS-C NEX and I think it's pretty tiny with the Sigma 30/2.8 mounted. Big superzooms tend to be a bit comically oversized in comparison to the body, but it's not any bigger than the DSLR alternatives.

11-19-2013, 10:37 AM   #84
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I find it interesting how being so skinny and all, it kinds of makes me think of a film back to stick on the front of your lens, like you used to use a film holder on the back of your view camera. Too bad the sensor fills so little of the size of the holder.
11-21-2013, 05:02 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
Me carries P67ii whole day when travel... and usually shoot less than 1 roll a day.
after making the committment and droping 10 grand,i'm not wasting my time comparing my 645d to some other camera.if it comes a little short,you think i'm going to ditch it?
01-03-2014, 07:14 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeSF Quote
I'd take one 645D over two D800 s any day.
I have both the D800E and the Pentax 645D. I have printed similar scenes with similar processing for both D800E and 645D. For me there is still something unquantifiable that gives the 645D a different feel. I have printed both at A3+ on the Epson R3000, and while I like the Nikon shot, I love the 645D shot. They are equally sharp, but for me, sharpness isn't the point.

I'm sure the A7R will be a very capable camera and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tempted. I hadn't shot with my 645D for a while, but I did yesterday and printed some out and the rendering on the 645D just feels better. Not sure why exactly, but it has a certain je ne sais quoi
07-18-2014, 10:27 AM   #87
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645D vs. A7r

I know this is coming in quite late in this thread, but as someone who owns both the 645D and the Sony A7r, I can honestly say that while there is a certain pleasure derived from shooting with the 645D, from both its simple, film-inspired design to the beautiful IQ in each file, it is in fact collecting dust on my shelf now. I am truly considering selling the 645D solely because the A7r has stolen my attention away. Coming from a primarily FF shooter, my most favorite aspect of the 645D besides IQ & no-BS buttons was the aspect ratio of 4:3 as opposed to FF 3:2. In this respect a non-cropped version of a 645 photo would almost completely cover a 17x22 sheet. That to me is just amazing.

I consider myself to be a landscape photographer. I am using a tripod quite a bit, and also doing some hand-held work when I want to pull off some crazy low level angle stuff. The first thing I noticed with the A7r was the dynamic range. This in itself is something I have not seen since my 6x7 days with a Mamiya 7II. Granted, it's not drum-scanned slide quality, but the DR blows away all my previous digital experiences, from a 5DIII to an M9. With these cameras I was always bracketing exposures. I find myself doing that now about 1/10th of the time given the A7r's RAW abilities.

Me: Hello, my name is X, and I am a pixel peeper.

Crowd: Hello, X. Welcome.

Yes I admit it, I believe I have a pixel peeping problem. That being said, when this camera's focus is on, it is ON. I shoot manual focus 90% of the time. These images are the sharpest I've seen, and, with hesitation, I do decree, sharper than any of my Leica lenses on an M9 rangefinder. (Cue explosive commentary in the followup) Now, give me a break on that comment as I am shooting mostly with the Tri-Elmar 16 18 21 lens and the Novoflex adapter, but I am in fact seeing equal sharpness compared to if not slightly more than the rangefinder system. One last comment before the onslaught-the FE 55mm 1.8 is the sharpest lens I have ever seen in my days holding a camera. No, I do not have the Zeiss OTUS nor have I shot with one...is it sharper? Probably. I don't know. For $4000 should it be? Yes. Back to the point-because of my pixel peeper addiction I will gladly use the A7r over the 645D any day. Couple the sharpness factor with the fact that it is over half the weight, well, you pretty much got a winner IMHO.

Are there drawbacks? Of course. I mean, I had to pony up for the Tri-Elmar because I wanted a WIDE lens and the 24-70 OS is crap at 70mm and is worse than what I want to see at 24mm. It's great at 35mm. Do I see lens vibration at 1/100? Sometimes. Do I see it on a tripod? No. Do I care if I am getting the sharpness I want and the dynamic range I have dreamt of in years past? Meh, yes and no. I will get by.

So, the 645D is a great, decreasing in price camera. Am I interested in the 645Z? Definitely .Will I buy it? Hmmmmmm. It's hard to go back to those large bodies when you've been messing with the skinny chic down the corner on Sony Street. Most likely I will convince myself the A7r is a better camera in terms of IQ and will just stick with this one till the end. Or, until they release the A8r. I'll keep you posted.
07-18-2014, 12:16 PM   #88
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I don't have any of the Nikon D8xx series and likely won't ever. But I did just recently pick up a Sony a7R to replace all my Canon 35mm kit that I'm now selling off (except for some choice lenses like the TS-E's to keep & use with the a7R). I expect to do some comparison work over the coming months, with the a7R vs. my older 645D's and my new 645Z. I'm sure each will prove to have its singular advantages.

From a shootability standpoint, I already know there are things about the a7R that annoy me in ways that the slow & heavy 645D never has done. The 645Z eliminates most of the downsides of the D's shooting experience (aside from sheer size & weight). I just plain enjoy shooting the Pentax in ways that I can't see ever being true with the Sony; I say that having no history with either company's cameras prior to the 645D and a7R. But we'll see, once I've had more time to become accustomed to the Sony's quirks.

As fantastic image-making tools, I do think these cameras all represent an embarrassment of riches. It was 10 years ago that I bought a Canon 10D. Even having worked in IT for 30 years and knowing the pace of technology innovation, it's still amazing to think that we've come from the 10D to the 645Z or even the a7R in just one decade. While we haven't doubled hardware / technical qualities like resolution or dynamic range every 18 months as Moore's Law would seem to call for, it's still incredible what we can do with the current crop of cameras compared to that old 10D... which itself was no slouch for its time.

Last edited by Royce Howland; 07-18-2014 at 05:01 PM.
07-18-2014, 04:17 PM   #89
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645D vs. A7r

Greetings, Royce! Could you be more specific as to the annoyances you've seen with regard to shooting the A7r vs. the 645D? Haha I'd probably agree with you on some!
07-19-2014, 04:51 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by beowulfAgate Quote
Greetings, Royce! Could you be more specific as to the annoyances you've seen with regard to shooting the A7r vs. the 645D? Haha I'd probably agree with you on some!
I'll jump in here and say that, even though I have only been testing it so far (and in an extremely limited way due to things going on in my life right now), the difference between the 645Z and the A7R is pretty great in terms of buttons and their placements. I put that down to the size difference---you just have to pay a penalty either way: With the Z you get a lot of rational buttons and placements(although that's compromised in vertical, imo)but you gain serious weight and size; with the A7R you get this lovely size and weight and then have to pay for it with fiddliness. I would add that the Z seems easier to use with 2 hands to me, the left hand truly adding a meaningful platform, while with the A7R i always feel like my left hand is a little like a vestigial appendage---it feels cramped helping out.
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