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02-09-2014, 12:39 PM   #121
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I've just noticed that the FA 25mm lens, once at $4,999 is being sold on eBay for $3,985. A few other dealers have lowered the price as well, but Adorama is still at MAP.

Pentax D SMC FA 645 25 mm F 4 Al If SDM AW Lens New 027075215177 | eBay

02-09-2014, 07:35 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by FrankC Quote
I've just noticed that the FA 25mm lens, once at $4,999 is being sold on eBay for $3,985. A few other dealers have lowered the price as well, but Adorama is still at MAP.

Pentax D SMC FA 645 25 mm F 4 Al If SDM AW Lens New 027075215177 | eBay
A photo store in Cleveland has put two DFA 25mm up for auction. Buy it now price: $3500; actual selling price around $3200. The lens is too expensive and I hope Pentax realizes that at this point.

Pentax SMC Da 645 25 mm F 4 0 Al SDM If AW Lens Lot 6890 027075215177 | eBay
02-10-2014, 06:29 AM   #123
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compare the Pentax price to Phase and Hasselblad prices - not to Nikon and Canon FF dslrs. Apples to apples. When using the right comparison, Pentax is in the ballpark. You could say that all the MF manufacturers are priced too high, however since their lens production numbers are considerably less, they don't have economies of scale.
02-10-2014, 06:46 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by hsteeves Quote
compare the Pentax price to Phase and Hasselblad prices - not to Nikon and Canon FF dslrs. Apples to apples. When using the right comparison, Pentax is in the ballpark. You could say that all the MF manufacturers are priced too high, however since their lens production numbers are considerably less, they don't have economies of scale.
I understand that logic but, the economy of scale is a chicken and egg question. If priced too high, you will never have high volume sales. If pricing should be based on Phase and Hasselblad, the 645D should be about 25k. At 3k Pentax would have sold many more 25mm copies and that price is more in line with the existing FA lens prices.

Just my 2 cents.

02-10-2014, 07:20 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Thomas Quote
At 3k Pentax would have sold many more 25mm copies and that price is more in line with the existing FA lens prices.
Do we have any idea whatsoever what is the cost of manufacturing a batch of these and holding the inventory for x number of years? Do we have any idea whatsoever whether there are enough fixed costs (relative to variable costs) that spreading them over a larger number of units would dramatically lower the cost of manufacture? Do we have any idea whatsoever whether the market for a 645 25mm WA is large enough to support a higher volume of sales at any price - high enough to justify a high-volume, low-cost strategy?

Do we know Pentax could make more money using a high-volume, low-cost strategy for a 645DII camera and lenses betond that price/market decision they've already (apparently) made?

I don't know the answers.
02-10-2014, 07:34 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Thomas Quote
I understand that logic but, the economy of scale is a chicken and egg question. If priced too high, you will never have high volume sales. If pricing should be based on Phase and Hasselblad, the 645D should be about 25k. At 3k Pentax would have sold many more 25mm copies and that price is more in line with the existing FA lens prices.

Just my 2 cents.
It is priced based on expected sales. Pricing it too low to try to stir up sales only loses money and doesn't really help with sales. Digital medium format, by definition, is low volume business. But for those who want what it offers, it is worth it.
02-10-2014, 11:45 AM - 1 Like   #127
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Pricing -- maybe we should think differently about the lenses, as opposed to the camera?

Here's my take -- yes, the lenses are expensive. Hard to design and produce.
But the camera is a different story. They could sell the body for US $3,000 and still make a profit. Particularly if, like my GR, it was made in China.

Back to the lenses. You know, that 645D sensor is smaller than the 'normal' 6 x 4.5 size (54x40mm, Mamiya Leaf Credo 80 back)... only 44x33mm (same as the Mamiya Leaf Credo 40 back, BTW). Larger than full-frame's 36x24mm, but not by much. Point is, you could probably use many of the K-mount lenses on the 645D without getting objectionable vignetting. Making an adapter would take a bit of engineering, to handle the flange distance, etc... but what a payoff if it worked. Would be fun to manage a rapid-development project to pull this off!

I am a proud owner of a 645N. Bought it from Keh for $300. It is probably the best camera I will ever own, and I'm 70 now. It handles and works perfectly, and the 120 film takes me back to childhood and a Kodak Hawkeye (which had a lot better industrial styling/design than anything these days). If Pentax could bring in a digital 645 body under $3,000, I would buy one immediately. Even though, as an amateur, I have no commercial use for it.
02-10-2014, 11:57 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
Larger than full-frame's 36x24mm, but not by much
It is 68% larger by area.

(1452-864)/864

02-10-2014, 12:00 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
If Pentax could bring in a digital 645 body under $3,000, I would buy one immediately. Even though, as an amateur, I have no commercial use for it.

Used ones will likely drop to $3k in the next year or two. Don't know if that qualifies for you.

Your 'use the K-mount' idea is fun but likely wouldn't be implemented without a mirrorless lens. It would work well with a 1.7x T/C.
02-10-2014, 12:08 PM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
Back to the lenses. You know, that 645D sensor is smaller than the 'normal' 6 x 4.5 size (54x40mm, Mamiya Leaf Credo 80 back)... only 44x33mm (same as the Mamiya Leaf Credo 40 back, BTW). Larger than full-frame's 36x24mm, but not by much. Point is, you could probably use many of the K-mount lenses on the 645D without getting objectionable vignetting. Making an adapter would take a bit of engineering, to handle the flange distance, etc... but what a payoff if it worked. Would be fun to manage a rapid-development project to pull this off!
Even with a "crop" format you still have to fit the mirror in there, and that's going to be longer than the flange focal distance of K-mount lenses. The only way it would work is if you designed the body as a mirrorless, and made an adapter to 645. Medium format advances slowly and hasn't gotten the feature set of the newer mirrorless bodies, like phase-detect AF. You could add that back in with a translucent-mirror type adapter like Sony did with the LA-EA4 adapter, but that has disadvantages too. It's a huge engineering problem and really unnecessary when there's piles of old 645 lenses floating around.
02-10-2014, 12:15 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It is 68% larger by area.

(1452-864)/864
o please..................


APS-H can be 68% larger then APS-C




02-10-2014, 12:16 PM   #132
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Oh well, forget the K-mount idea. Reality strikes. Anyway, will be interesting to see what the new 645D-II offers, and how much it costs...
02-10-2014, 12:22 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Do we have any idea whatsoever what is the cost of manufacturing a batch of these and holding the inventory for x number of years? Do we have any idea whatsoever whether there are enough fixed costs (relative to variable costs) that spreading them over a larger number of units would dramatically lower the cost of manufacture? Do we have any idea whatsoever whether the market for a 645 25mm WA is large enough to support a higher volume of sales at any price - high enough to justify a high-volume, low-cost strategy?

Do we know Pentax could make more money using a high-volume, low-cost strategy for a 645DII camera and lenses betond that price/market decision they've already (apparently) made?

I don't know the answers.
People from this forum are notoriously poor at reading the tea leaves on market research. I can't tell you how many times I have read someone from here proclaiming that there was not enough volume to support a downmarket full frame body, and that you would have to be foolish to release such a system with the expectation of low lens sales down the line, and yet the Alpha A7 is a smashing success. I can't tell you how many times a small body with tactile controls for important settings and a fast, high quality line of primes (a "digital K1000"/"digital ME"/"digital rangefinder") was brought up and then shot down as a niche item that would never sell, and yet the Fuji X system is selling like hotcakes.

The evidence for those things is usually that Pentax is not doing it, but then Pentax was/is a rather dysfunctional company which has made quite a few huge blunders in their research and brand placement within the past decade. I'm happy enough that they released the 645D and are evidently continuing that with the 645D2, which are bargain basement priced in comparison to the alternatives.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 02-10-2014 at 12:36 PM.
02-10-2014, 01:06 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
o please..................


APS-H can be 68% larger then APS-C




Whatever. That's more than not much larger.
02-10-2014, 01:26 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
The evidence for those things is usually that Pentax is not doing it, but then Pentax was/is a rather dysfunctional company which has made quite a few huge blunders in their research and brand placement within the past decade. I'm happy enough that they released the 645D and are evidently continuing that with the 645D2, which are bargain basement priced in comparison to the alternatives.
Does someone really think that people buy a 645Dii to scan some negatives while you can do that job with a 300$ K-01?

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