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09-03-2014, 09:46 AM - 1 Like   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by aeros Quote
I did however pick up an ancient and battle scarred Mamiya Press Super 23.
I would be very grateful for information as to when this camera came on the market.
"Introduced in 1967, the Super 23 . . . " according to
Mamiya Press - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

09-03-2014, 09:56 AM - 1 Like   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by aeros Quote
Please provide me with the correct spelling.
He's just trying to be too clever, and it didn't work. As if you always have to use the name of the parent company when discussing a product.

Going by his logic, you would not talk about the show you saw on NBC last night; you would talk about the show you saw on "General Electric".
09-03-2014, 10:13 AM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
He's just trying to be too clever, and it didn't work. As if you always have to use the name of the parent company when discussing a product.

Going by his logic, you would not talk about the show you saw on NBC last night; you would talk about the show you saw on "General Electric".
Is there any need to be argumentative?
09-03-2014, 10:51 AM - 1 Like   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
Is there any need to be argumentative?
Did you see the post I was talking about? It was very rude and completely dismissive of the OP and his problems. Here it is:

QuoteQuote:
I certainly can see why you are upset, and the customer service should be better. But if you really are going public with your complaint and want folks to take it seriously you might consider learning how to spell the company name correctly...
Where did that come from? Is the OP supposed to ignore the brand name on his camera? And until he does, his complaints are not to be taken seriously?

09-03-2014, 11:03 AM - 1 Like   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
Did you see the post I was talking about? It was very rude and completely dismissive of the OP and his problems. Here it is:



Where did that come from? Is the OP supposed to ignore the brand name on his camera? And until he does, his complaints are not to be taken seriously?
I don't see any rudeness there. I noticed the misspelling right at the start and thought it was a typo, it's the kind of typo I make getting the lats tow lettesr wrogn. If it's not a typo, then someone in Pentax Ricoh might think it is a slight against them. Japan is a funny place for courtesy and bearing in mind the fact that revdocjim lives in Japan it may be that that is his point. I spend a lot of time in Asia myself and am aware of the sensibilities in Japan. It might seem odd to us in the West, but there are tighter sensibilities in Asia, and in Japan in particular.

This is partly my point in avoiding ranting. It makes it harder for compromises to happen. Ranting at a Japanese company is more likely to make them stiffen up. Nikon and Canon have strong representation in North America and elsewhere, Pentax less so, so more decisions are made in Japan. This causes issues and as we have seen in this thread, delay.

There is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Backing it into a corner is rarely a good way. In situations like this it is better to get the right result than to 'win'. The best result would be the result I had - brand new replacement. With a bit of grace respect and gentle persuasion, that might be the result. The OP will get his lens back, I am sure. I'm sure he would prefer a new replacement, but he isn't legally entitled to that.

Last edited by itshimitis; 09-03-2014 at 11:15 AM.
09-03-2014, 11:44 AM   #96
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Unfortunately long waits for repair and the outsourcing of repairs are now the rule for the camera/sport optics industry rather than the exception, i.e., most manufacturers have gone this route. In Canada Zeiss doesn't seem to have any presence at all any more, other than the distributor (Gentec). Items needing service have to be shipped to Front Royal, Virginia (USA), where it takes a couple of months before the repair technicians getting around to looking at the item -- then they have to get approval to proceed from the customer, order the parts from Germany, wait for the parts, get around to repairing the item, process payment, and ship it back to Gentec. Are profit margins too thin? Are labour costs (for repair technicians) too high to be financially viable? Maybe the day is coming when all items needing repair will be shipped to Vietnam or the Philippines.
09-03-2014, 12:14 PM - 2 Likes   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
I don't see any rudeness there. I noticed the misspelling right at the start and thought it was a typo, it's the kind of typo I make getting the lats tow lettesr wrogn. If it's not a typo, then someone in Pentax Ricoh might think it is a slight against them. Japan is a funny place for courtesy and bearing in mind the fact that revdocjim lives in Japan it may be that that is his point. I spend a lot of time in Asia myself and am aware of the sensibilities in Japan. It might seem odd to us in the West, but there are tighter sensibilities in Asia, and in Japan in particular.

This is partly my point in avoiding ranting. It makes it harder for compromises to happen. Ranting at a Japanese company is more likely to make them stiffen up. Nikon and Canon have strong representation in North America and elsewhere, Pentax less so, so more decisions are made in Japan. This causes issues and as we have seen in this thread, delay.

There is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Backing it into a corner is rarely a good way. In situations like this it is better to get the right result than to 'win'. The best result would be the result I had - brand new replacement. With a bit of grace respect and gentle persuasion, that might be the result. The OP will get his lens back, I am sure. I'm sure he would prefer a new replacement, but he isn't legally entitled to that.
You make some good points, but in fairness to the OP, he did suffer through 5 months of delays on his getting his $5000 lens repaired, with no end in sight, before going into rant mode. If I was in his place, I would be getting pretty nervous about ever even seeing my lens again at this point, and I would probably start thinking about talking to a lawyer.
09-03-2014, 12:31 PM - 2 Likes   #98
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Hm.... I love Pentax product but I am with the OP on this.

Certainly need to have pro level customer service for camera like the 645Z.

09-03-2014, 12:35 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by itshimitis Quote
I don't see any rudeness there.

There is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Backing it into a corner is rarely a good way. In situations like this it is better to get the right result than to 'win'. The best result would be the result I had - brand new replacement. With a bit of grace respect and gentle persuasion, that might be the result. The OP will get his lens back, I am sure. I'm sure he would prefer a new replacement, but he isn't legally entitled to that.




I have had personal experience with litigation and also with a Japanese owned oil sands company for whom I designed a logo. They decided to use it but refused to pay me or to acknowledge me as the original author and my copyrights. I won an out of court settlement without a lawyer.


My main asset was a retired high level banker exile from Cuba who is a very close friend. He made many business trips to Japan. He taught me well what tactics to expect and the best way to counter them. As I said, I won without a lawyer in large part due to Angelís advice. They could have had my design for 2k Can. but it cost way more to settle with me and I suspect a ton of money in legal fees.


I have learned well how the Japanese negotiate and could very well give you some advice. Statement of fact; not meant to be argumentative.


---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 14:07 ----------

BREAKING NEWS: THIS JUST IN.......
Mike, the nice man from Sun Camera Service just emailed me...

Mr Jones,
I just got your lens back today from Ricoh. It turns out that Ricoh warehouse received the lens back several days ago but they were in the progress of moving therefore things got a bit messy. Regardless, we'll pack it up and ship to you shortly. Thanks for your understanding and if there's anything we can do to help you in the future, please do not hesitate to contact me directly.

So here I am five months later, with my lens now in Toronto and I have no concern that Mike will fulfill his promise. With the way my luck has been going, Iím feeling anxious about what condition itís in after five months.

The repair estimate stated that the barrel would require straightening, yet there was not a mark anywhere on that lens when I shipped it. Iím hoping it didnít suffer further damage in shipping. Itís worthy to note that the lens worked flawlessly in manual focus as I used it for four months before I was persuaded by the Pentax rep to return it. So much for his promises it would be back in a month.

Last edited by aeros; 09-03-2014 at 01:44 PM. Reason: Typo
09-03-2014, 05:11 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by pete-tarmigan Quote
Unfortunately long waits for repair and the outsourcing of repairs are now the rule for the camera/sport optics industry rather than the exception, i.e., most manufacturers have gone this route. In Canada Zeiss doesn't seem to have any presence at all any more, other than the distributor (Gentec). Items needing service have to be shipped to Front Royal, Virginia (USA), where it takes a couple of months before the repair technicians getting around to looking at the item -- then they have to get approval to proceed from the customer, order the parts from Germany, wait for the parts, get around to repairing the item, process payment, and ship it back to Gentec. Are profit margins too thin? Are labour costs (for repair technicians) too high to be financially viable? Maybe the day is coming when all items needing repair will be shipped to Vietnam or the Philippines.



From my personal experience spending extended time in the provinces of the Philippines and in Manila, it would be in my opinion a great place for a service centre. Notwithstanding that Iím married to a Filipina, I was most impressed with their industriousness, and pride in the quality of their work.
09-03-2014, 05:57 PM - 2 Likes   #101
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I apologize if my comment about the correct spelling of "Ricoh" was rude. That was not my intention and I confess to having a weird obsession with little details that are often insignificant. Nevertheless, when making a public complaint about any corporation, making sure the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted goes a long way. And as I stated in that same post, I think the OP has just cause for being upset with the service he's received (and hasn't received!)

My observation has been that Japanese camera manufacturers tend to give great service here in Japan but there is often a very weak link between them and their overseas reps or subsidiaries. On another forum that deals with Sony/Minolta cameras I have read repeated horror stories of poor customer service. Nevertheless, I have had several dealings with Sony customer service here in Japan and every time it has been absolutely stellar. I don't know the causes of this gap but it appears to be very real. I hope it can be closed or at least reduced in the future for the sake of all overseas customers and the corporations themselves.
09-03-2014, 06:44 PM   #102
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Sir, you are a gentleman.

---------- Post added 09-03-14 at 19:52 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by revdocjim Quote
I apologize if my comment about the correct spelling of "Ricoh" was rude. That was not my intention and I confess to having a weird obsession with little details that are often insignificant. Nevertheless, when making a public complaint about any corporation, making sure the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted goes a long way. And as I stated in that same post, I think the OP has just cause for being upset with the service he's received (and hasn't received!)

My observation has been that Japanese camera manufacturers tend to give great service here in Japan but there is often a very weak link between them and their overseas reps or subsidiaries. On another forum that deals with Sony/Minolta cameras I have read repeated horror stories of poor customer service. Nevertheless, I have had several dealings with Sony customer service here in Japan and every time it has been absolutely stellar. I don't know the causes of this gap but it appears to be very real. I hope it can be closed or at least reduced in the future for the sake of all overseas customers and the corporations themselves.

Sir, you are a gentleman. I think that the poor customer service from Japanese manufacturers could give an edge to folks like Phase One. Even if the 645Z appears to offer a much better price break, customers will shy away from Pentax and others that provide such shocking service. I do very much appreciate your last post. The spelling comment did not offend me.

Last edited by aeros; 09-03-2014 at 06:53 PM.
09-04-2014, 02:55 PM - 1 Like   #103
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I can't comment on the digital side of things but I can say that I've had mixed experience getting my film 645 gear repaired by the Canadian service centre. My guess is that they don't see a lot of it or have a lot of parts for it.

I sent in a dead 645N body that was deemed un-repairable due to parts no longer available. I told them to dispose of it but in hindsight I should have tried sending it to someone else first. I also sent in a lens that was having issues with the focus ring jamming. The lens took two months for them to CLA and adjust the focus issue and it wasn't cheap but it is working well now. There was also a dent in the filter ring, they wanted to send it to Japan to fix that but I said no.
09-05-2014, 09:12 AM - 1 Like   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by aeros Quote
From my personal experience spending extended time in the provinces of the Philippines and in Manila, it would be in my opinion a great place for a service centre. Notwithstanding that Iím married to a Filipina, I was most impressed with their industriousness, and pride in the quality of their work.
I agree. I attended graduate school with Filipina-Canadians have worked with many Filipinos on board ships and have found the same. If the warranty repairs ever get moved overseas, the quality would probably be good. Who knows -- maybe the turnaround time would actually be reduced!
09-05-2014, 06:42 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by pete-tarmigan Quote
I agree. I attended graduate school with Filipina-Canadians have worked with many Filipinos on board ships and have found the same. If the warranty repairs ever get moved overseas, the quality would probably be good. Who knows -- maybe the turnaround time would actually be reduced!


It would still depend on parts supply by Pentax, regardless of the efforts by third party service contractors, they are still at the mercy of the manufacturer. I was thinking about the sweet lady at the dealer from whom I purchased the lens. She takes it very personally so does the company founder who is in his late eighties and rightfully proud of the company he has built. How can they protect themselves from these changing times and worsening service?
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