[Philippp]

Hi Michael Biondo,
Thanks for posting your experience with the Hartblei. Unfortunately, this mirrors my experience exactly. There must be a large sample variation factor. On the 645z, the problems are even worse of course, as the sensor uses more of the outer image circle with attendant decreasing image quality.
I was considering sending my lens back for re-alignment, but your experience doesn't bode well.
Philipp

[TheDocAUS]

I can say with some confidence that the technique you used to test the lens, differs from mine when using in the field.


Maybe it is me, but I thought both images were poor, one marginally more than the other.

[BostonUKshooter]

I can say with some confidence that the technique you used to test the lens, differs from mine when using in the field.


Maybe it is me, but I thought both images were poor, one marginally more than the other.

Stefan Seib at Hartblei/H-Cam Germany says he is working on something for this tilt/shift issue , and may have a solution 'later this autumn'......they tried an adapter a while back for 67 lenses on 645 but aborted it for unspecified reasons....watch this space.....

[Stefan Steib]

My partners in Kiev have pointed me to this thread and asked me to answer, maybe I can bring some light into this

this is all about field curvature (astigmatism), same discussion as we had with Phase One (for whom we did an OEM version of the new lens for some time).
Also their users have split into 2 groups - group one was very happy to use the lens for certain images, e.g. landscapes or portraits, people, food, all more artistic stuff.
group 2 who I´d like to call the siemensstar followers were very unhappy for using it on architecture and precise technical stuff, although we even had advised Phase One to advertise
the lens with an artistic label, these customers started a rant about the "inferior quality" using it on 80 Mpix backs, which I call nonsense.

The 45mm has a very strong field curvature as it is a superwideangle lens capable to draw an image circle at 45mm large enough for even 6x9cm.

The lens was calculated some time back in the 70ies or 80ies and this means that the image plane is not very flat. To work with this lens best precisely (besides the artistic approach).
is to stop it down to f16, set focus not to center , but to a circle at around 1/3rd image height (from center) and also refocus a tad closer if needed, if there are important parts of the image outside of this thought curvature.

To learn how to use this: again use the brick wall . User needs to train how to focus for a flat plane and for stitching he may even need to refocus and maybe even tilt if there are
image parts he wants to cover in sharp resolution.

BTW many Leica M wideangle Lenses have these field curvatures and nobody complains about this, at least people seem to know, what kind of tools they are using for which task.

And finally: the Hartblei 45mm TS is the ONLY existing solution for TS on MF. So unless somebody does a better solution (which I doubt, because it is a niche lens and incredibly expensive to devellop , probably a new lens costs a company aound 1 Million € from drawingboard to shop, and the market numbers for possible customers in MF are SMALL.), it is what it is. Take it or leave it.

BTW Phase sold the lens for about double the price as hartbleilens.com does now. I think people need to adjust their mindsets and become realistic about what is possible and what is a pointless wish.
We all want the superdeal for half the price double the quality with four times the usability.

Me too. If you find that, please tell me.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan Steib - hartblei.de - hcam.de

[TheDocAUS]

Thanks for the explanation and the tips on using the lens Stefan. The lens has been superb for landscape use.

[texandrews]

My partners in Kiev have pointed me to this thread and asked me to answer, maybe I can bring some light into this

this is all about field curvature (astigmatism), same discussion as we had with Phase One (for whom we did an OEM version of the new lens for some time).
Also their users have split into 2 groups - group one was very happy to use the lens for certain images, e.g. landscapes or portraits, people, food, all more artistic stuff.
group 2 who I´d like to call the siemensstar followers were very unhappy for using it on architecture and precise technical stuff, although we even had advised Phase One to advertise
the lens with an artistic label, these customers started a rant about the "inferior quality" using it on 80 Mpix backs, which I call nonsense.

The 45mm has a very strong field curvature as it is a superwideangle lens capable to draw an image circle at 45mm large enough for even 6x9cm.

The lens was calculated some time back in the 70ies or 80ies and this means that the image plane is not very flat. To work with this lens best precisely (besides the artistic approach).
is to stop it down to f16, set focus not to center , but to a circle at around 1/3rd image height (from center) and also refocus a tad closer if needed, if there are important parts of the image outside of this thought curvature.

To learn how to use this: again use the brick wall . User needs to train how to focus for a flat plane and for stitching he may even need to refocus and maybe even tilt if there are
image parts he wants to cover in sharp resolution.

BTW many Leica M wideangle Lenses have these field curvatures and nobody complains about this, at least people seem to know, what kind of tools they are using for which task.

And finally: the Hartblei 45mm TS is the ONLY existing solution for TS on MF. So unless somebody does a better solution (which I doubt, because it is a niche lens and incredibly expensive to devellop , probably a new lens costs a company aound 1 Million € from drawingboard to shop, and the market numbers for possible customers in MF are SMALL.), it is what it is. Take it or leave it.

BTW Phase sold the lens for about double the price as hartbleilens.com does now. I think people need to adjust their mindsets and become realistic about what is possible and what is a pointless wish.
We all want the superdeal for half the price double the quality with four times the usability.

Me too. If you find that, please tell me.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan Steib - hartblei.de - hcam.de

Thank you Stefan! Glad that you posted here personally, very helpful.

[KDINDC]

Thanks Stephan. I would definitely fall into the artist category and use the lens for landscapes. Also, I stitch a lot. So, edge accuracy is not as important. My lens has become my goto tool. I am very happy with the images that I have created with it.

[michaelbiondo]

I would not recommend this lens for architecture. However my experience with Vitaliy in the Ukraine was very positive, communication was very good and he did refund my purchase.
MB

[fotophil]

I have had this lens for over 10 years using it in an Mamiya Mount on a Mamiya AFD3 at first and later having Vitally convert it to a Pentax Mount. It wasn't until I could take advantage of the live view focussing on the 645Z that I could really focus this lens correctly. In my experience it is a better tilt lens than a shift lens. i also use a 50mm Mamiya Shift Lens which is a much better shift lens but unfortunately does not tilt. I would love to have the Mamiya Dhift Lens converted to a Pentax Mount but that would be a costly conversiion. The Hartblei 45mm T/S is the only game in town for Pentax Users (if you can find one in a Pentax Mount and it works well for me in landscape situations requiring depth of field control. The lens isn't very strong for stitched pans or architecture. I received excellent service from Vitally when having the factory convert my lens over to the Pentax Mount for around $125.

[TheDocAUS]

Stefan

The 45mm T+S lens has a 82mm filter thread, so I can use a CP filter. However I cannot use an adapter plate to use my Lee filter holder. I can attach an adapter plate but then I do not full use of the focus ring – so in reality I cannot use my Lee filter holder or filters. Is there a special type of adapter plate for the lens? I cannot find it on the website.

EDIT: I have found the answer. I have a wide angle adapter plate, using the standard Lee adapter fixed my problem.

Regards


Michael

[Philippp]

Hi Fotophil,
Regarding the Mamiya 645 50mm shift. There are some examples out there with Hasselblad mount. Easy to use on Pentax 645 via adapter. It achieves infinity focus without introduction of glass elements. I have been using mine on 645z with excellent results. The conversion was done by Zoerk in Germany I think.

[fotophil]

IJ have learned that the modification must be done in Germany and costs $650. Hopefully the shipping and customs can be handled through their US Office. Due the short flange distance of the Pentax 6454 Mount, there are no simple adapters for mounting Mamiya 645 Lenses onto the Pentax 645 Body. The modification consists of removing the Mamiya Mount Assembly and replacing it with a custom mount designed. I believe the factory also sells customized Mamikya 50mm lenses for around $1200. Ihave used the lens on both Mamiya AFD and Leica S2 Bodies.

[Gonzo]

This made me very interested in the Mamiya 50/4 as well as the Zörkendörfer adapter and mailed Zörk regarding prices :-) :


ZÖRK Multi Focus System (MFS) /w adapter Pentax 645 (tilt up to 30°) € 550.-
Extenstion tubes in sets 32,50,100mm € 120.-
Rodenstock APO Rodagon 4/105mm € 880.-



ZÖRK Pro Shift adapter P67 for Pentax 645 € 1.400.-
Shift +- 20mm with 360° rotation
Pentax 67 lens on request


ZÖRK Multi Focus System /w adapter Pentax 67 € 550.-
Objektiv Schneider APO Symmar(Digitar) F= 5,6/120mm € 930.-

Very interesting stuff. Actually I dont need tilt personally. Wondering if it's true that it's only for 45mm+, but there's a P67 45mm on the pic so at least that seems to work! And cheaper than a Hardblei.

I'll translate the rest of the mail:
For tilt/shift you can combine the Pro Sa with the MFS to a construction kit.
Each of the pictures above are showing lenses that focus to infinity (!)
Without picture is the conversion of the Mamiya 645 4/50mm. This is very time-consuming and costs about 630 EUR.
A used and converted Mamiya PC 4/50 lens is 1.180 EUR inkl. warranty.
All prices include 19% German VAT.

I'm tempted.

[fotophil]

Several years ago I looked into the Zork Shift Adapter that allows Pentax 67 lenses to be fit to the P645Z. It is very well made and permits either 45 or 55mm P67 Lenses to shift (but not tilted) however it was very expensive (several thousand dollars). Based upon the last forum poat, It sounds like the price has dropped so that it is now cheaper than the Mamiya 50mm shift lens alternative. Plesse keep the forum informed as to the specific details.

[Gonzo]

Just wondering if they are sharp enough on the 645z. I have a hard time finding any example of either lens on a 645z.