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10-03-2014, 12:32 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lacunapratum Quote
"that your post suggested that most pentax users have issues with the shutters" - this is certainly a false read of my post.
As well it might be, but that was part of my point. Loads of forums have whole discussions arise out of situations like this and suddenly you get an uninformed assumption which leads to changes in buying behaviour.

10-03-2014, 02:17 AM   #17
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Itshimitis, you are right.

Contrary to our ego's beliefs, we on the forums represent such a small part of the 645 user base. Think for a minute here people, Pentax have sold out entire production runs on this camera. That means there are thousands of them out there.

To think that a few forums users have had a shutter issue with the 645d and Z combined, that is well within manufacturing quality standards for any company.

Stop, breath and relax. Your camera is not going to die. Pentax is not doomed.

What a great result for the OP, he gets 2800 free shots and gets a new camera!

And why would you not take your 645d overseas on a trip, so what if if dies, any Canon/Nikon/Sony body could die also. Keep a Sony Nex and zoom in the bag and get on with it if it does die.
10-03-2014, 12:31 PM   #18
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"Loads of forums have whole discussions" is equally lacking data points. The truth is that neither ishimitis, 2351HD, nor I have exact data points. Failure after 2800 shots, even if free, is somewhat disconcerting, even if all 645D/Z users have reported their issues on this forum. If Pentax guarantees 50 or 100,000, well, then it should be 50 or 100,000. Forums tend to exaggerate failures and also idolize their brands. Even if Pentax has sold thousands, chances are that not all of them are reporting issues on this forum. What I am saying is that if the 645Z then would be the digital version of their great 645 landscape camera I would like to see fewer reports of shutter failures. And the Sony Nex and zoom might do it for you, 2351HD, and not for me. Please note that I did not prevent anyone from visiting the Pentax Shinto shrine, I love the brand, the cameras, and the lenses, I am simply saying they should snuff up their quality control or improve materials/quality. Moreover, I am happy to use the camera at home, in the studio, or for scientific photography, where I can pull another high quality camera (i.e. not a Sony Nex and zoom) out of the closet any minute. Otherwise, why bother? I might as well travel with the Sony Nex and the zoom in the first place.
10-03-2014, 12:51 PM   #19
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Good deal. I'm really happy to hear you got some good service.

10-03-2014, 06:29 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lacunapratum Quote
"Loads of forums have whole discussions" is equally lacking data points. The truth is that neither ishimitis, 2351HD, nor I have exact data points. Failure after 2800 shots, even if free, is somewhat disconcerting, even if all 645D/Z users have reported their issues on this forum. If Pentax guarantees 50 or 100,000, well, then it should be 50 or 100,000. Forums tend to exaggerate failures and also idolize their brands. Even if Pentax has sold thousands, chances are that not all of them are reporting issues on this forum. What I am saying is that if the 645Z then would be the digital version of their great 645 landscape camera I would like to see fewer reports of shutter failures. And the Sony Nex and zoom might do it for you, 2351HD, and not for me. Please note that I did not prevent anyone from visiting the Pentax Shinto shrine, I love the brand, the cameras, and the lenses, I am simply saying they should snuff up their quality control or improve materials/quality. Moreover, I am happy to use the camera at home, in the studio, or for scientific photography, where I can pull another high quality camera (i.e. not a Sony Nex and zoom) out of the closet any minute. Otherwise, why bother? I might as well travel with the Sony Nex and the zoom in the first place.
It does. It states that if a failure happens within these limits it will repair free of charge.

I'm no fanboy. I had a sensor fault with my D which took a while to sort out as it had to be shipped to Japan. But I am realistic enough not to expect perfection. If within guarantee periods and shutter actuation limits, then under its own terms, and also in legislation, Ricoh Pentax has obligations to the customer. No argument there. But expecting a 0% failure rate is in my opinion unrealistic. What Ricoh Pentax need to look at is a better support structure. if it doesn't have the facility to repair them in the market that people have bought it in, then they should have some loan bodies for the affected customers.

As far as back up bodies are concerned, a prudent professional will have a back up body that gives what he would consider sufficient image quality to meet his/her needs. If a wedding shooter has only one body with him I would advise them not to rely on the insurance paying out in the event of equipment failure.
10-03-2014, 07:47 PM   #21
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Ishimitis - I am afraid we continue to disagree. You continue to make generalizing statements and continue to distort my original point.

I remember Pentax big time advertising the 50K actuations number. I remember folks on the net being somewhat surprised. However, my shutter failed, just a month after warranty, and I paid for it. C.R.I.S. did the repair and I was happy with it. None of my 645 film bodies had shutter problems and I used them much more than the 645D. Those bodies had a reputation for being built like tanks, and that's why I bought them and that's why I bought the lenses, and the lenses were the reasons I continued with the 645D. I am used to having back-ups, and I do for most of my systems.

We also disagree on how to judge the number of failures reported here on the forum. I am arguing that just a few of the 1000s of users who have bought the 645D/Z system participate in this forum, and I have the impression that the number is higher than I would like it to be on such a forum. You compare this forum with others who likely have a significantly higher user base. Both of us have had problems with their 645D bodies.

You bring up the issue of weddings. I never talked about weddings. What I was talking about was my contemplation about my travels this summer, where I would have taken my P645D if I would have felt its reliability was equivalent to my 645 and 6008i bodies of film years. My own experience and some other reports made me decide not to take the Pentax system even though photographically it would have made a lot of sense. I would have made a different decision if there would have been less failure reports and my own experience would have been a very isolated case. I also had confidence in my Olympus system and fortunately, I was not disappointed. And I apologize, I do use backup bodies in many cases, but the Sony Nex with the zoom is just not my thing. And realistically, the 645D/Z with a few lenses would be a perfect travel set, especially if the reliability was there. A second D/Z makes it just really heavy, and a backup camera of substantially lesser quality doesn't do the trick for me. Just once more for contemplation, if I was worried about the Hy6 body, a second body is much lighter (w/o the back).

This was the thought I was sharing. I did not claim to have numbers. I did not intent to incite an attack on overall Pentax/Ricoh quality or to stir up the internet. I did not say the 645D/Z was a bad system. In fact, I love the system for many applications, and I will continue using it. I also do not plan on becoming a wedding photographer to use a Sony Nex with a zoom lens, even though you seem to suggest something like it. I don't. But my strong feeling that Pentax/Ricoh should improve the quality of the shutter system for the 645D/Z remains unaffected by all of your attacks. I believe it would earn Pentax much acclaim, especially in light of the upcoming Sony/Mamiya/Zeiss competition.
10-03-2014, 08:02 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lacunapratum Quote
Ishimitis - I am afraid we continue to disagree. You continue to make generalizing statements and continue to distort my original point.

I remember Pentax big time advertising the 50K actuations number. I remember folks on the net being somewhat surprised. However, my shutter failed, just a month after warranty, and I paid for it. C.R.I.S. did the repair and I was happy with it. None of my 645 film bodies had shutter problems and I used them much more than the 645D. Those bodies had a reputation for being built like tanks, and that's why I bought them and that's why I bought the lenses, and the lenses were the reasons I continued with the 645D. I am used to having back-ups, and I do for most of my systems.

We also disagree on how to judge the number of failures reported here on the forum. I am arguing that just a few of the 1000s of users who have bought the 645D/Z system participate in this forum, and I have the impression that the number is higher than I would like it to be on such a forum. You compare this forum with others who likely have a significantly higher user base. Both of us have had problems with their 645D bodies.

You bring up the issue of weddings. I never talked about weddings. What I was talking about was my contemplation about my travels this summer, where I would have taken my P645D if I would have felt its reliability was equivalent to my 645 and 6008i bodies of film years. My own experience and some other reports made me decide not to take the Pentax system even though photographically it would have made a lot of sense. I would have made a different decision if there would have been less failure reports and my own experience would have been a very isolated case. I also had confidence in my Olympus system and fortunately, I was not disappointed. And I apologize, I do use backup bodies in many cases, but the Sony Nex with the zoom is just not my thing. And realistically, the 645D/Z with a few lenses would be a perfect travel set, especially if the reliability was there. A second D/Z makes it just really heavy, and a backup camera of substantially lesser quality doesn't do the trick for me. Just once more for contemplation, if I was worried about the Hy6 body, a second body is much lighter (w/o the back).

This was the thought I was sharing. I did not claim to have numbers. I did not intent to incite an attack on overall Pentax/Ricoh quality or to stir up the internet. I did not say the 645D/Z was a bad system. In fact, I love the system for many applications, and I will continue using it. I also do not plan on becoming a wedding photographer to use a Sony Nex with a zoom lens, even though you seem to suggest something like it. I don't. But my strong feeling that Pentax/Ricoh should improve the quality of the shutter system for the 645D/Z remains unaffected by all of your attacks. I believe it would earn Pentax much acclaim, especially in light of the upcoming Sony/Mamiya/Zeiss competition.
I'm confused why bring up what was a simple example of a wedding shooter? I wasn't suggesting you were one. However if a photographer is professional, then it would be prudent to have a back up body of the highest spec as they could afford regardless of whether they are wedding, portrait or landscape shooter. This is a sensible thing to do and to expect to never have a fault is unrealistic. It's the tog's choice whether to be prevented from being able to shoot in such circumstances. I have Nikon and Canon bodies. If they failed, I would still be without those cameras while they are repaired, so I always ensure where possible that I have a back up plan. Better if you don't have to use it, but any pro should have considered a back up camera in his/her cost of doing business analysis.

Beyond that, we can agree to disagree.
10-03-2014, 08:11 PM   #23
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I think we all agree that Pentax service is not what it was and needs improvement, but if you think the problem is unique, read this thread:

hasselblad service center at N.J.

10-03-2014, 08:14 PM   #24
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Well - that was exactly my point. A reasonable backup for the 645D/Z is no trivia because of the weight and because of airline luggage limitations. Don't know how often I have been fumbling at the gates to repackage it all to get through. Of course, the ideal backup would be another 645D/Z. However, that's real heavy and big. Many folks using the professional Canikon bodies will include one of the smaller bodies or two as a backup. Last summer I used an E-M1 and had a second E-M1 without grip in the bag. Never had to use it though, but it made me feel better. Also I did think about a possible backup for the 645D, but wasn't happy with any of the alternatives I could come up with.

With the old 645nii bodies I would have been willing to take the risk... and I did take them, and was never disappointed.

Next month I'll get a 645Z and I'll be happy to have two bodies around. But for long travels??? Not sure.

---------- Post added 10-03-14 at 11:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Thomas Quote
I think we all agree that Pentax service is not what it was and needs improvement, but if you think the problem is unique, read this thread:

hasselblad service center at N.J.
Oh I agree with you, Thomas. Hasselblad seems to have lost it completely. Phase appears to work for some, but those Mamiya bodies seem to have many issues and their NY service doesn't work for me. They have taken a year trying to deliver a spare part, and I don't seem to be able to get an e-mail out of them. It must have been a decade since they first talked about a new body, but it seems to remain vaporware. The new Leica bodies do not seem to entirely live up to the company's earlier reputation, but those lenses are awesome. After doing some serious tests on all of my Pentax lenses I do feel that Leica is pursuing the right strategy. With these high resolution sensors it's all in the lenses. I don't own the Leica system though. I must say I have been very happy with Rolleiflex/DHW service, except each time I send it in, shipping to Germany sets me back $200. But the system has no reasonable wide angle solutions and I suppose eventually I'll need a newer back. They have several quasi magic lenses though and I do have my own wide angle rig to augment the system.

Quite happy with those little m43 bodies, Olympus E-M1, Panasonic GH4. Few issues, if any. Less mass to move I guess. Knock on wood.

Would love to take the Pentax on travels, but I am getting older and an extra body would really wear on me.

Last edited by Lacunapratum; 10-03-2014 at 09:46 PM.
06-13-2015, 10:07 AM   #25
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Thanks for sharing this video. Turns out I'm experiencing this very same problem. Pretty bummed out about it since the Z only has about 3500 shots on the shutter. I'm just hoping the repair process doesn't take weeks. Thankfully I use Canon stuff for most of my work, but even still Pentax needs to step up how quickly it turns around repairs if it wants to compete with the likes of Nikon and Canon.
06-14-2015, 05:20 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by timg Quote
Thanks for sharing this video. Turns out I'm experiencing this very same problem. Pretty bummed out about it since the Z only has about 3500 shots on the shutter. I'm just hoping the repair process doesn't take weeks. Thankfully I use Canon stuff for most of my work, but even still Pentax needs to step up how quickly it turns around repairs if it wants to compete with the likes of Nikon and Canon.
Ahh I'm sorry to hear you are having the same issue I had. I was hoping it was just a odd fault that my body had, maybe it's more wide spread than once thought. Keep us updated on what happens. I'm now 5k shots into my 2nd body, so far so good touch wood!
06-16-2015, 02:35 AM   #27
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Hi guys, unfortunately I had the same problem last week when I were in Scotland. But the problem still appeared both in portrait and landscape mode. I have to contact the Italian customer care and I'm very disappointed to be without the Z for 6 weeks or maybe more.
Mattia
06-16-2015, 08:13 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattzald Quote
Hi guys, unfortunately I had the same problem last week when I were in Scotland. But the problem still appeared both in portrait and landscape mode. I have to contact the Italian customer care and I'm very disappointed to be without the Z for 6 weeks or maybe more.
Mattia
That is unfortunate. My first body got so bad right before I sent it off, It wasnt working in any orientation, the original video I posted was when It first started to happen.. It went down hill from there. Good luck with the next one!
06-16-2015, 09:22 PM   #29
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Happy to hear your second body is working well for you Thomas! Hopefully I'll be able to say the same about my Z here soon. I'll keep you all posted.
06-16-2015, 10:58 PM   #30
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Thanks Thomas...
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