Pentax 645z vs Canon 5DSR 50.6 Mpx

SyncGuy · 03-22-2015, 09:27 PM

Canon FF will always be the best when compared against the 645D/Z. And they are all right because the latter isn't FF, it's a crop.. LOL!

**Rondec** · 03-23-2015, 03:03 AM

I am not totally sure what niche the Canon is shooting for. I would guess landscape, but dynamic range at low iso isn't stellar and I would guess that most landscape photographers would tend to gravitate to a Sony A7r or, a D800/D810. Certainly the 645z is a pretty special camera, but it is also to rich for the average shooter. Still, I think even the D800 would beat this Canon in most situations.

aleonx3 · 03-23-2015, 04:15 AM

I think if Canon makes the 50Mpx sensor just for their own product only, they must target for a bigger market, otherwise, it would quite costly for them to be profitable. Unless of course, they also sell their sensor to other camera makers.

biz-engineer · 03-23-2015, 04:29 AM

Originally posted by aleonx3

I think if Canon makes the 50Mpx sensor just for their own product only

I also think so, perhaps Canon want to compete with the D810, and in this case, Canon may struggle more than Sony with smaller pixels...

2351HD · 03-23-2015, 05:18 AM

I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR.

Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras?

It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week.

Clavius · 03-23-2015, 05:43 AM

Hang on, the Sony 50MP FF will be coming this year, has a very new design, and according to rumors, it will "easily beat" the Canon 50mp FF. However, it still will not beat the 645Z off course, due to its format advantage. Just saying that I'm going to find the comparisson between the two 50mp FF's much more entertaining and relevant.

itshimitis · 03-23-2015, 07:06 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by 2351HD

I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR.

Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras?

It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week.

I wouldn't. Dynamic range or the lack of it isn't the biggest issue but compounds what is the biggest issue and is the reason I switched from canon to nikon. Noise patterning at low ISO. A deal breaker for me and most landscapers

Kolor-Pikker · 03-23-2015, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by 2351HD

I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR.

The 5DsR is $3900, making it the second-most expensive Canon camera, so it's not exactly cheap to begin with. You can find 645Z on eBay for $6500. A $2,600 difference is in the realm of consideration for the kind of people these kinds of cameras appeal to. The 5DsR is the camera I was waiting for many years, and I got tired of waiting, but I don't really feel any regret now. I wouldn't say it's negativity so much as disappointment.

Quote:

Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras?

I agree about the Canon glass, but the DR/noise factor does limit the extent to which you can use the camera, Nikons can use Zeiss lenses and have top AF as well. Most of the shots I made with my 5D2 that I like the most, were well-lit and exposed images, rarely exceeding ISO800 or so, or wouldn't have especially benefited from better technology. Pattern noise didn't make my 5D2 useless, but I did hone my technique to avoid it whenever possible, as well as using fast glass and stabilization to avoid pushing ISO even 1/3rd a stop more than I needed.

Quote:

It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week.

Depends on what you would need it for, as going by the preliminary results, it seems we're looking at a trade-off between resolution and dynamic range. Resolution is easy to make up for, since honestly anything 36mp & up is going to look great at huge print sizes if you use good lenses, but DR means shadow detail that may or may not make it into the shot.

Of all the types of photography, I can see studio photographers taking a liking to the 5Ds the most, since you neither need to push ISO nor care about dynamic range and the rest is all about detail.

texandrews · 03-23-2015, 01:41 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by 2351HD

I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR.

Well, not me. Maybe if I had to do a bunch of video, but not for still shooting.

Quote:

Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses,

This is one thing I've always found a bit odd about the arguments for Canon and Nikon: the large lens catalog. The thing is, how many of these are you actually going to put in your bag? Some of these lenses aren't suitable for FF, some are legacy options or near dupes, a bunch are highly specialized lenses. That's great if you need that, and so then Canon becomes a top choice. But most don't. Even the majority of pros I know don't. If I hear another "Well, Sony doesn't have a tilt shift lens" from another person who doesn't own a tilt shift I think I'll gag. Of course, using the logic of a large lens line-up----well, what could be larger than what you can have with the Sony FE/E mount series? You can pretty much use just about any lens made. And it's not like lack of a large lens catalog has kept people from buying medium format....

Quote:

... have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810,

That's very much not to like, and the DR is probably also not as good as several other like cameras (we'll leave the 645Z out of this for now)---and very much won't be this summer or fall after the new Sony releases. This is really pretty odd, and doesn't speak well for Canon which is already lagging behind after years of dominance sensor-wise

Quote:

...but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras?

No, but would I buy one today for nearly $4K? I don't think so. Maybe a 645D if I couldn't have gotten the Z. But now that more cameras are doing better at higher iso's (which the new Canon seems NOT to be doing, btw...) and have more MP's than the vast majority of people can effectively use, DR performance has come to the fore over the last several years as an extremely desirable aspect of sensor tech---for some of us it was more important than the iso gains.

Quote:

It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week.

Well, as I said, not me. YMMV as always.

2351HD · 03-23-2015, 05:33 PM

My mileage doesn't need to vary as I have a 645z and before that a D.

From what I saw of the Canon 6D raw files from dpreview, they were excellent and I couldn't find any pattern noise like the 1DX or 5Diii.

If the 5dsr is like the 6d then it will be fine.

bobmaxja · 03-23-2015, 05:48 PM

When you start to see the dust all the defect of the sheet, the textile and set-up , you know that this 645Z is way better than everything else. Details are simply amazing

2351HD · 03-23-2015, 08:14 PM

Oh yes the detail on the Z is another level against the canon.

---------- Post added 03-24-15 at 01:19 PM ----------

Also, I think we need to wait for the raw files to appear so that we can all give it a fair evaluation and push them to the limit to see what happens.

rawr · 03-23-2015, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by 2351HD

Also, I think we need to wait for the raw files to appear

There are lots of RAW 5DSR CR2's of the standard IR test scene, from ISO 100 to 12800, downloadable here:

Canon 5DS R Review: Now Shooting! - Samples

2351HD · 03-24-2015, 12:45 AM

Except for the fact that those raws far from represent what we are going to get in the field.

They need to post some underexposed raws in poor lighting so we can push them to see how they go.

rawr · 03-24-2015, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by 2351HD

They need to post some underexposed raws in poor lighting so we can push them to see how they go.

Normally, when they do a full camera review, Imaging Resource do that (eg the 5D3 Exposure tests, down the bottom of the page). But I think IR mentioned that they only had the camera for a weekend, so weren't able to do their usual battery of tests.

03-23-2015, 05:43 AM	#36
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Hang on, the Sony 50MP FF will be coming this year, has a very new design, and according to rumors, it will "easily beat" the Canon 50mp FF. However, it still will not beat the 645Z off course, due to its format advantage. Just saying that I'm going to find the comparisson between the two 50mp FF's much more entertaining and relevant. Last edited by Clavius; 03-23-2015 at 05:53 AM.

03-23-2015, 12:33 PM	#38
Kolor-Pikker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 344	Originally posted by 2351HD I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR. The 5DsR is $3900, making it the second-most expensive Canon camera, so it's not exactly cheap to begin with. You can find 645Z on eBay for $6500. A $2,600 difference is in the realm of consideration for the kind of people these kinds of cameras appeal to. The 5DsR is the camera I was waiting for many years, and I got tired of waiting, but I don't really feel any regret now. I wouldn't say it's negativity so much as disappointment. Quote: Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras? I agree about the Canon glass, but the DR/noise factor does limit the extent to which you can use the camera, Nikons can use Zeiss lenses and have top AF as well. Most of the shots I made with my 5D2 that I like the most, were well-lit and exposed images, rarely exceeding ISO800 or so, or wouldn't have especially benefited from better technology. Pattern noise didn't make my 5D2 useless, but I did hone my technique to avoid it whenever possible, as well as using fast glass and stabilization to avoid pushing ISO even 1/3rd a stop more than I needed. Quote: It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week. Depends on what you would need it for, as going by the preliminary results, it seems we're looking at a trade-off between resolution and dynamic range. Resolution is easy to make up for, since honestly anything 36mp & up is going to look great at huge print sizes if you use good lenses, but DR means shadow detail that may or may not make it into the shot. Of all the types of photography, I can see studio photographers taking a liking to the 5Ds the most, since you neither need to push ISO nor care about dynamic range and the rest is all about detail. Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 03-23-2015 at 12:40 PM.

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03-22-2015, 09:27 PM	#31
SyncGuy Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 821	Canon FF will always be the best when compared against the 645D/Z. And they are all right because the latter isn't FF, it's a crop.. LOL!

03-23-2015, 03:03 AM	#32
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	I am not totally sure what niche the Canon is shooting for. I would guess landscape, but dynamic range at low iso isn't stellar and I would guess that most landscape photographers would tend to gravitate to a Sony A7r or, a D800/D810. Certainly the 645z is a pretty special camera, but it is also to rich for the average shooter. Still, I think even the D800 would beat this Canon in most situations.

03-23-2015, 04:15 AM	#33
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	I think if Canon makes the 50Mpx sensor just for their own product only, they must target for a bigger market, otherwise, it would quite costly for them to be profitable. Unless of course, they also sell their sensor to other camera makers.

03-23-2015, 04:29 AM	#34
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,225	Originally posted by aleonx3 I think if Canon makes the 50Mpx sensor just for their own product only I also think so, perhaps Canon want to compete with the D810, and in this case, Canon may struggle more than Sony with smaller pixels...

03-23-2015, 05:18 AM	#35
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR. Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras? It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week.

03-23-2015, 07:06 AM - 1 Like	#37
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by 2351HD I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR. Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras? It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week. I wouldn't. Dynamic range or the lack of it isn't the biggest issue but compounds what is the biggest issue and is the reason I switched from canon to nikon. Noise patterning at low ISO. A deal breaker for me and most landscapers

03-23-2015, 01:41 PM - 1 Like	#39
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,390	Originally posted by 2351HD I personally am not sold on all the negativity around the Canon. If I were in the market right now for a new system and couldn't afford a full MF system, I would buy the 5DsR. Well, not me. Maybe if I had to do a bunch of video, but not for still shooting. Quote: Canon have the best lens range by a country mile, accept the excellent zeiss ZE lenses, This is one thing I've always found a bit odd about the arguments for Canon and Nikon: the large lens catalog. The thing is, how many of these are you actually going to put in your bag? Some of these lenses aren't suitable for FF, some are legacy options or near dupes, a bunch are highly specialized lenses. That's great if you need that, and so then Canon becomes a top choice. But most don't. Even the majority of pros I know don't. If I hear another "Well, Sony doesn't have a tilt shift lens" from another person who doesn't own a tilt shift I think I'll gag. Of course, using the logic of a large lens line-up----well, what could be larger than what you can have with the Sony FE/E mount series? You can pretty much use just about any lens made. And it's not like lack of a large lens catalog has kept people from buying medium format.... Quote: ... have 50mp and top AF. What's not to like. The DR is not as good as a D810, That's very much not to like, and the DR is probably also not as good as several other like cameras (we'll leave the 645Z out of this for now)---and very much won't be this summer or fall after the new Sony releases. This is really pretty odd, and doesn't speak well for Canon which is already lagging behind after years of dominance sensor-wise Quote: ...but what about all the wonderful photos taken with every other smaller DR camera that came before the D800, are they useless cameras? No, but would I buy one today for nearly $4K? I don't think so. Maybe a 645D if I couldn't have gotten the Z. But now that more cameras are doing better at higher iso's (which the new Canon seems NOT to be doing, btw...) and have more MP's than the vast majority of people can effectively use, DR performance has come to the fore over the last several years as an extremely desirable aspect of sensor tech---for some of us it was more important than the iso gains. Quote: It's all a bit over the top. I would take a 5dsR over the nikon/Sony any day of the week. Well, as I said, not me. YMMV as always.

03-23-2015, 05:33 PM	#40
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	My mileage doesn't need to vary as I have a 645z and before that a D. From what I saw of the Canon 6D raw files from dpreview, they were excellent and I couldn't find any pattern noise like the 1DX or 5Diii. If the 5dsr is like the 6d then it will be fine.

03-23-2015, 05:48 PM	#41
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	When you start to see the dust all the defect of the sheet, the textile and set-up , you know that this 645Z is way better than everything else. Details are simply amazing

03-23-2015, 08:14 PM	#42
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Oh yes the detail on the Z is another level against the canon. ---------- Post added 03-24-15 at 01:19 PM ---------- Also, I think we need to wait for the raw files to appear so that we can all give it a fair evaluation and push them to the limit to see what happens.

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03-23-2015, 10:26 PM	#43
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by 2351HD Also, I think we need to wait for the raw files to appear There are lots of RAW 5DSR CR2's of the standard IR test scene, from ISO 100 to 12800, downloadable here: Canon 5DS R Review: Now Shooting! - Samples

03-24-2015, 12:45 AM	#44
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Except for the fact that those raws far from represent what we are going to get in the field. They need to post some underexposed raws in poor lighting so we can push them to see how they go.

03-24-2015, 01:24 AM	#45
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by 2351HD They need to post some underexposed raws in poor lighting so we can push them to see how they go. Normally, when they do a full camera review, Imaging Resource do that (eg the 5D3 Exposure tests, down the bottom of the page). But I think IR mentioned that they only had the camera for a weekend, so weren't able to do their usual battery of tests.