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itshimitis · 03-22-2015, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Pentax is not going to shake anything. Canon 5DS will still outsell the 645Z simply because the 645Z is invisible to the masses. The Canon 5Ds is going to be displayed as the best FF camera of the moment in 99% of the camera shops world wide.

If past performance is anything to go by, low ISO noise patterning and low DR will demonstrate that it is anything but the best FF body out there.

dugaut · 03-22-2015, 03:29 AM

I've noticed over the years that I need to parse marketing from engineering; Canon's marketing machine is among the best.

Owning the 645z and the 1DX, 645z is clearly better in the iso department. The other day I took a picture with the 645z at 10000 and forgot to do any noise reduction in lightroom. After I discovered that, I still didn't put any NR on it.

The IDX is a great sports photography tool.

So I'm not too excited about the 5DR/S. There are too many times when I'm shooting 6400 and above (dawn, dusk, heavy clouds, indoors without flash, etc.).

And let's not get started on DR and shadow recovery; simply amazing on the 645z.

VisualDarkness · 03-22-2015, 04:00 AM

That actually wasn't even a close battle.

**RobA_Oz** · 03-22-2015, 04:08 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Pentax is not going to shake anything. Canon 5DS will still outsell the 645Z simply because the 645Z is invisible to the masses. The Canon 5Ds is going to be displayed as the best FF camera of the moment in 99% of the camera shops world wide.

Canon will use the 5DS as a "halo" product, but they won't be selling it to the masses.

Kolor-Pikker · 03-22-2015, 04:27 AM

Shame they didn't test shadow recovery. The 5DS definitely had a lot more NR applied, the difference in the fabrics at 6400 was massive, even with both images scaled down 50% in Photoshop. One thing I noticed in particular is the higher chroma fidelity on the Z, again it's probably due to higher NR on the Canon files, but the result is that many areas in the Canon shot got blended into a brown-gray soup while the Z retained color separation.

Even so, it might make for a good companion camera to the Z if you have, and have a need for Canon's TS-E lenses. If we batter Pentax enough with requests for a TS in the 25~30mm range it will really give Canon a run for their money.

**boriscleto** · 03-22-2015, 05:31 AM

Originally posted by itshimitis

If past performance is anything to go by, low ISO noise patterning and low DR will demonstrate that it is anything but the best FF body out there.

But it has the most Megapickels. That means it's best!

itshimitis · 03-22-2015, 05:53 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

But it has the most Megapickels. That means it's best!

Silly me! Consider me scolded!

PreSolCoh · 03-22-2015, 06:24 AM

Comparisons and expectations in Pentax 645z vs Canon 5DSR 50.6 Mpx are UNREALISTIC. Why? Because... the pixel size of a 645 frame is physically larger than the pixel size of a 35mm frame. Much the same as the 645 frame size is physically larger than that of a 35mm frame. And while the number of pixels may be approximately the same amount in each frame size, the physical size in a single pixel in the 645 and 35mm are radically different; and in this context, comparisons and expectations are unrealistic. It is much the same as comparing "Chalk" with "Cheese". Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO.

Stavri · 03-22-2015, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by PreSolCoh

Comparisons and expectations in Pentax 645z vs Canon 5DSR 50.6 Mpx are UNREALISTIC. Why? Because... the pixel size of a 645 frame is physically larger than the pixel size of a 35mm frame. Much the same as the 645 frame size is physically larger than that of a 35mm frame. And while the number of pixels may be approximately the same amount in each frame size, the physical size in a single pixel in the 645 and 35mm are radically different; and in this context, comparisons and expectations are unrealistic. It is much the same as comparing "Chalk" with "Cheese". Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO.

So what you're saying is that Canon has no business making a 50.6 Mpx full frame camera when there's a 645z out there, I concur....

**monochrome** · 03-22-2015, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by PreSolCoh

Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO.

They will be made, regardless.

By Canon.

**RGlasel** · 03-22-2015, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

Canon will use the 5DS as a "halo" product, but they won't be selling it to the masses.

Agreed, and don't overestimate Canon's marketing power in this particular niche of the "bigger and better DSLR" market. Both the 645Z and 5DS are flagship products that aren't sold in gadget superstores, because the people that buy cameras at gadget superstores are never going to buy either camera. The customers who will buy flagship cameras are looking for something to differentiate themselves from the common camera owner, and Canon's dominance of the overall camera market is a huge disadvantage. You don't reach flagship customers through television ads, you reach them through targeted events, commentary (good and bad) from "influencers" who are unknown to the masses, and so on.

formercanuck · 03-22-2015, 03:33 PM

One can assume that this comparison (51MP MF 645Z to 50.6MP FF 5DSR) - effective Medium Frame to Full Frame can be seen as similar to Full Frame to APS-C if one was using a 24MP FF and a K-3.
The sensor size DOES mean something... its not just MP.

biz-engineer · 03-22-2015, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by formercanuck

similar to Full Frame to APS-C if one was using a 24MP FF and a K-3

Yes, however, 24Mpixel FF must have an antialias filter, while the K-3 does not need it, so for instance, the difference between the K-3 and a D610 is less than the difference between Canon 5DS and 645Z, in addition, the K-3 uses the center of the lens where the resolution is the best, while both the 5DS and 645Z are using a lot of lens area away from the center. Well, that's how I see it.

mikeSF · 03-22-2015, 07:27 PM

is there a link to the Canon camera with specs? I havent heard of it yet but these comparison shots are very underwhelming for the Canon. yikes.

Stavri · 03-22-2015, 07:39 PM

Originally posted by mikeSF

is there a link to the Canon camera with specs? I havent heard of it yet but these comparison shots are very underwhelming for the Canon. yikes.

Canon 5DS R (imageresource)

03-22-2015, 07:40 AM	#24
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	Originally posted by PreSolCoh Comparisons and expectations in Pentax 645z vs Canon 5DSR 50.6 Mpx are UNREALISTIC. Why? Because... the pixel size of a 645 frame is physically larger than the pixel size of a 35mm frame. Much the same as the 645 frame size is physically larger than that of a 35mm frame. And while the number of pixels may be approximately the same amount in each frame size, the physical size in a single pixel in the 645 and 35mm are radically different; and in this context, comparisons and expectations are unrealistic. It is much the same as comparing "Chalk" with "Cheese". Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO. So what you're saying is that Canon has no business making a 50.6 Mpx full frame camera when there's a 645z out there, I concur.... Last edited by Stavri; 03-22-2015 at 07:52 AM.

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03-22-2015, 02:57 AM	#16
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by biz-engineer Pentax is not going to shake anything. Canon 5DS will still outsell the 645Z simply because the 645Z is invisible to the masses. The Canon 5Ds is going to be displayed as the best FF camera of the moment in 99% of the camera shops world wide. If past performance is anything to go by, low ISO noise patterning and low DR will demonstrate that it is anything but the best FF body out there.

03-22-2015, 03:29 AM	#17
dugaut New Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 7	I've noticed over the years that I need to parse marketing from engineering; Canon's marketing machine is among the best. Owning the 645z and the 1DX, 645z is clearly better in the iso department. The other day I took a picture with the 645z at 10000 and forgot to do any noise reduction in lightroom. After I discovered that, I still didn't put any NR on it. The IDX is a great sports photography tool. So I'm not too excited about the 5DR/S. There are too many times when I'm shooting 6400 and above (dawn, dusk, heavy clouds, indoors without flash, etc.). And let's not get started on DR and shadow recovery; simply amazing on the 645z.

03-22-2015, 04:00 AM	#18
VisualDarkness Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,439	That actually wasn't even a close battle.

03-22-2015, 04:08 AM	#19
RobA_Oz Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Tasmania, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,209	Originally posted by biz-engineer Pentax is not going to shake anything. Canon 5DS will still outsell the 645Z simply because the 645Z is invisible to the masses. The Canon 5Ds is going to be displayed as the best FF camera of the moment in 99% of the camera shops world wide. Canon will use the 5DS as a "halo" product, but they won't be selling it to the masses.

03-22-2015, 04:27 AM	#20
Kolor-Pikker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 345	Shame they didn't test shadow recovery. The 5DS definitely had a lot more NR applied, the difference in the fabrics at 6400 was massive, even with both images scaled down 50% in Photoshop. One thing I noticed in particular is the higher chroma fidelity on the Z, again it's probably due to higher NR on the Canon files, but the result is that many areas in the Canon shot got blended into a brown-gray soup while the Z retained color separation. Even so, it might make for a good companion camera to the Z if you have, and have a need for Canon's TS-E lenses. If we batter Pentax enough with requests for a TS in the 25~30mm range it will really give Canon a run for their money.

03-22-2015, 05:31 AM	#21
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,477	Originally posted by itshimitis If past performance is anything to go by, low ISO noise patterning and low DR will demonstrate that it is anything but the best FF body out there. But it has the most Megapickels. That means it's best!

03-22-2015, 05:53 AM	#22
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by boriscleto But it has the most Megapickels. That means it's best! Silly me! Consider me scolded!

03-22-2015, 06:24 AM	#23
PreSolCoh Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Thompson Trace, Thompson Road, Palmiste Village, Longdenville, Chaguanas. Trinidad and Tobago. Posts: 40	Comparisons and expectations in Pentax 645z vs Canon 5DSR 50.6 Mpx are UNREALISTIC. Why? Because... the pixel size of a 645 frame is physically larger than the pixel size of a 35mm frame. Much the same as the 645 frame size is physically larger than that of a 35mm frame. And while the number of pixels may be approximately the same amount in each frame size, the physical size in a single pixel in the 645 and 35mm are radically different; and in this context, comparisons and expectations are unrealistic. It is much the same as comparing "Chalk" with "Cheese". Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO.

03-22-2015, 09:36 AM	#25
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by PreSolCoh Realistically, comparisons could be done against other 645 systems and not 35mm systems, IMHO. They will be made, regardless. By Canon.

03-22-2015, 11:30 AM	#26
RGlasel Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Saskatoon Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,229	Originally posted by RobA_Oz Canon will use the 5DS as a "halo" product, but they won't be selling it to the masses. Agreed, and don't overestimate Canon's marketing power in this particular niche of the "bigger and better DSLR" market. Both the 645Z and 5DS are flagship products that aren't sold in gadget superstores, because the people that buy cameras at gadget superstores are never going to buy either camera. The customers who will buy flagship cameras are looking for something to differentiate themselves from the common camera owner, and Canon's dominance of the overall camera market is a huge disadvantage. You don't reach flagship customers through television ads, you reach them through targeted events, commentary (good and bad) from "influencers" who are unknown to the masses, and so on.

03-22-2015, 03:33 PM	#27
formercanuck Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: SoCal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 518	One can assume that this comparison (51MP MF 645Z to 50.6MP FF 5DSR) - effective Medium Frame to Full Frame can be seen as similar to Full Frame to APS-C if one was using a 24MP FF and a K-3. The sensor size DOES mean something... its not just MP.

03-22-2015, 03:39 PM	#28
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,249	Originally posted by formercanuck similar to Full Frame to APS-C if one was using a 24MP FF and a K-3 Yes, however, 24Mpixel FF must have an antialias filter, while the K-3 does not need it, so for instance, the difference between the K-3 and a D610 is less than the difference between Canon 5DS and 645Z, in addition, the K-3 uses the center of the lens where the resolution is the best, while both the 5DS and 645Z are using a lot of lens area away from the center. Well, that's how I see it.

03-22-2015, 07:27 PM	#29
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,622	is there a link to the Canon camera with specs? I havent heard of it yet but these comparison shots are very underwhelming for the Canon. yikes.

03-22-2015, 07:39 PM	#30
Stavri Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: at a Bean & Leaf Photos: Albums Posts: 1,832 Original Poster	Originally posted by mikeSF is there a link to the Canon camera with specs? I havent heard of it yet but these comparison shots are very underwhelming for the Canon. yikes. Canon 5DS R (imageresource)