645z: live view vs mirror lockup

the_ether · 04-05-2015, 05:41 PM

Is there any difference between the two in terms of vibration?

What actually happens in live view? When turning it on there is a big clunk - presumably the mirror moving up. But when I push the trigger there is another loud clunk and the screen goes blank until there is another clunk and the image I shot appears and finally a softer clunk when live view returns.

However, if I turn off live view and choose mirror up mode, when I push the trigger there is a clunk as the mirror moves up. When I then press again there is only a faint click as the shutter opens and then a loud clunk as the shutter closes and the mirror comes down again.

So it would seem to me that the manual mirror up mode is superior but I don't understand what is happening during live view. it would seem that the mirror moves when I take the shot, but why if it is already up when I engaged live view?

Adam · 04-05-2015, 06:03 PM

Do you see anything through the viewfinder while taking a shot in live view? I don't remember if the 645Z moves the mirror independently of the shutter or not (the K-3 does, other Pentax DSLRs don't). If you do see something, then mirror lock up would produce fewer vibrations.

the_ether · 04-05-2015, 06:06 PM

I'd also add remote capture via the Flucard to this issue. It seems to act in the same way as live view.

So strangely this would mean that to get the least vibration I'd have to use the IR remote control and not the Flucard's remote capture. Odd, no?

---------- Post added 04-06-15 at 02:09 AM ----------

Originally posted by Adam

Do you see anything through the viewfinder while taking a shot in live view?

No, which shows that the mirror is up. But the clunking that occurs when I press the trigger indicates that it is moving.

Adam · 04-05-2015, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by the_ether

So strangely this would mean that to get the least vibration I'd have to use the IR remote control and not the Flucard's remote capture. Odd, no?

I believe you can use the flucard without being in live view, but yes, the IR remote is the way to go IMO if you aren't.

Originally posted by the_ether

No, which shows that the mirror is up. But the clunking that occurs when I press the trigger indicates that it is moving.

The shutter should close, open, close, then open again.

Adam
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2351HD · 04-05-2015, 07:23 PM

I have found that best practice is to use the IR remote, set it to mirror lockup and set the shooting mode to 3s remote. When you press the shutter button it will open the mirror, wait 3 secs and then open the shutter.

If in live view, one press of the remote and it will close the shutter, open and close again.

When using live view, I compose and focus in live view, once ready to shoot I press the LV button to exit live view then I press the IR remote and start the process as stated above.

You will get the best results shooting once live view is off in my view.

ndevlin · 04-05-2015, 07:42 PM

LV involves the shutter firing twice, in succession, so that presumably adds to vibe-risk. MLI and IR remote with a delay is the best. The shutter opening still causes real vibration issues at the at-risk shutter speeds, sadly. Electronic First Curtain Shutter would be the greatest gift...

2351HD · 04-05-2015, 09:05 PM

Boy would it ever!
Was out using my 300mm yesterday and need to keep it above 1/200 to keep the files sharp, even with the RRS Long Lens Support.

Let's hope that the Z processor can handle it and they release a firmware upgrade for EFC.

---------- Post added 04-06-15 at 02:07 PM ----------

Also I find it to be worse shooting portrait, seems to vibrate in a way that amplifies it a little.

gha128 · 04-06-2015, 01:06 AM

Shooting with LV engaged uses 2 camera actuations...worth thinking about.

Best to focus/compose then disengage. Use IR and MUP and 2sec timer if you can.

Anything 200 and above you really need to use the 12sec timer.

Don't forget that the fantastic ISO capabilities mean you can bump the ISO to get more realistic shutter speeds when using longish lenses

itshimitis · 04-06-2015, 03:34 AM

I will use LV to compose and focus using focus peaking, and then use MLU. There is quite major shuttershock in LV in my experience.

the_ether · 04-06-2015, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by ndevlin

LV involves the shutter firing twice, in succession

Why?

Also, it seems to me that there is more than just the shutter firing. It sounds like the mirror is moving.

When in mirror lock-up mode, you can easily tell the difference in noise between the mirror moving when you first hit the trigger and the shutter opening when you hit the trigger a second time. Shooting in LV definitely involves the mirror moving - which I don't understand as it is already up when LV was first engaged.

2351HD · 04-06-2015, 05:39 AM

Because it is technically the 645Zs biggest failure, no electronic first curtain shutter.

It has to disengage live view before taking the shot.

I just tested it set to 3s Remote, mirror lockup and in live view with the IR remote the unit closes the shutter and drops the mirror, reopens the mirror, waits 3 seconds and fires the shutter for the shot.

I have not updated the the latest firmware yet but they could probably fix this, ie keep the mirror up when the shutter closes after live view.

Perhaps the shutter closing is mechanically linked to the mirror, when the shutter goes down so does the mirror.

To help minimize the shutter count, I close live view manually before shooting so that once the shot has been taken, live view won't auto kick back in and open the shutter again. If you leave live view on and try to play a stored image, it closes the shutter, plays the image and once you exit playback it opens the shutter again.

Good thing they upgraded the shutter to 100k as we are going to damn well need it.

the_ether · 04-06-2015, 06:04 AM

In LV the mirror is up and the shutter must also be open so that we get the view on the screen. So when you then press the trigger, the shutter must first close before opening the desired amount of time and then close to take the shot, before opening once more for LV. However, for some reason the mirror also moves.

Is the shutter mechanically linked to the mirror? Can't be. In mirror up mode, the mirror lifts up when the trigger is pressed. The shutter then opens only when the trigger is pressed again. The mirror doesn't move again until the shutter closes to complete the shot.

So I don't understand why in LV, the mirror has to flip-flop.

Originally posted by 2351HD

Good thing they upgraded the shutter to 100k as we are going to damn well need it.

Yup.

04-05-2015, 05:41 PM	#1
the_ether New Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 21	645z: live view vs mirror lockup Is there any difference between the two in terms of vibration? What actually happens in live view? When turning it on there is a big clunk - presumably the mirror moving up. But when I push the trigger there is another loud clunk and the screen goes blank until there is another clunk and the image I shot appears and finally a softer clunk when live view returns. However, if I turn off live view and choose mirror up mode, when I push the trigger there is a clunk as the mirror moves up. When I then press again there is only a faint click as the shutter opens and then a loud clunk as the shutter closes and the mirror comes down again. So it would seem to me that the manual mirror up mode is superior but I don't understand what is happening during live view. it would seem that the mirror moves when I take the shot, but why if it is already up when I engaged live view?

04-05-2015, 06:03 PM	#2
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,597	Do you see anything through the viewfinder while taking a shot in live view? I don't remember if the 645Z moves the mirror independently of the shutter or not (the K-3 does, other Pentax DSLRs don't). If you do see something, then mirror lock up would produce fewer vibrations. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

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04-05-2015, 06:06 PM	#3
the_ether New Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 21 Original Poster	I'd also add remote capture via the Flucard to this issue. It seems to act in the same way as live view. So strangely this would mean that to get the least vibration I'd have to use the IR remote control and not the Flucard's remote capture. Odd, no? ---------- Post added 04-06-15 at 02:09 AM ---------- Originally posted by Adam Do you see anything through the viewfinder while taking a shot in live view? No, which shows that the mirror is up. But the clunking that occurs when I press the trigger indicates that it is moving.

04-05-2015, 06:47 PM	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,597	Originally posted by the_ether So strangely this would mean that to get the least vibration I'd have to use the IR remote control and not the Flucard's remote capture. Odd, no? I believe you can use the flucard without being in live view, but yes, the IR remote is the way to go IMO if you aren't. Originally posted by the_ether No, which shows that the mirror is up. But the clunking that occurs when I press the trigger indicates that it is moving. The shutter should close, open, close, then open again. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

04-05-2015, 07:23 PM	#5
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	I have found that best practice is to use the IR remote, set it to mirror lockup and set the shooting mode to 3s remote. When you press the shutter button it will open the mirror, wait 3 secs and then open the shutter. If in live view, one press of the remote and it will close the shutter, open and close again. When using live view, I compose and focus in live view, once ready to shoot I press the LV button to exit live view then I press the IR remote and start the process as stated above. You will get the best results shooting once live view is off in my view.

04-05-2015, 07:42 PM	#6
ndevlin Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 132	LV involves the shutter firing twice, in succession, so that presumably adds to vibe-risk. MLI and IR remote with a delay is the best. The shutter opening still causes real vibration issues at the at-risk shutter speeds, sadly. Electronic First Curtain Shutter would be the greatest gift...

04-05-2015, 09:05 PM	#7
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Boy would it ever! Was out using my 300mm yesterday and need to keep it above 1/200 to keep the files sharp, even with the RRS Long Lens Support. Let's hope that the Z processor can handle it and they release a firmware upgrade for EFC. ---------- Post added 04-06-15 at 02:07 PM ---------- Also I find it to be worse shooting portrait, seems to vibrate in a way that amplifies it a little.

04-06-2015, 01:06 AM	#8
gha128 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 49	Shooting with LV engaged uses 2 camera actuations...worth thinking about. Best to focus/compose then disengage. Use IR and MUP and 2sec timer if you can. Anything 200 and above you really need to use the 12sec timer. Don't forget that the fantastic ISO capabilities mean you can bump the ISO to get more realistic shutter speeds when using longish lenses

04-06-2015, 03:34 AM	#9
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	I will use LV to compose and focus using focus peaking, and then use MLU. There is quite major shuttershock in LV in my experience.

04-06-2015, 04:49 AM	#10
the_ether New Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 21 Original Poster	Originally posted by ndevlin LV involves the shutter firing twice, in succession Why? Also, it seems to me that there is more than just the shutter firing. It sounds like the mirror is moving. When in mirror lock-up mode, you can easily tell the difference in noise between the mirror moving when you first hit the trigger and the shutter opening when you hit the trigger a second time. Shooting in LV definitely involves the mirror moving - which I don't understand as it is already up when LV was first engaged.

04-06-2015, 05:39 AM	#11
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Because it is technically the 645Zs biggest failure, no electronic first curtain shutter. It has to disengage live view before taking the shot. I just tested it set to 3s Remote, mirror lockup and in live view with the IR remote the unit closes the shutter and drops the mirror, reopens the mirror, waits 3 seconds and fires the shutter for the shot. I have not updated the the latest firmware yet but they could probably fix this, ie keep the mirror up when the shutter closes after live view. Perhaps the shutter closing is mechanically linked to the mirror, when the shutter goes down so does the mirror. To help minimize the shutter count, I close live view manually before shooting so that once the shot has been taken, live view won't auto kick back in and open the shutter again. If you leave live view on and try to play a stored image, it closes the shutter, plays the image and once you exit playback it opens the shutter again. Good thing they upgraded the shutter to 100k as we are going to damn well need it.

04-06-2015, 06:04 AM	#12
the_ether New Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 21 Original Poster	In LV the mirror is up and the shutter must also be open so that we get the view on the screen. So when you then press the trigger, the shutter must first close before opening the desired amount of time and then close to take the shot, before opening once more for LV. However, for some reason the mirror also moves. Is the shutter mechanically linked to the mirror? Can't be. In mirror up mode, the mirror lifts up when the trigger is pressed. The shutter then opens only when the trigger is pressed again. The mirror doesn't move again until the shutter closes to complete the shot. So I don't understand why in LV, the mirror has to flip-flop. Originally posted by 2351HD Good thing they upgraded the shutter to 100k as we are going to damn well need it. Yup.