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01-11-2016, 10:32 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tjompen1968 Quote
Risking ones life over gear sounds stupid to me. If someone pulls a gun on me I do what they ask unless they tell me to squeal like a pig. In that case I will hit them with my 150-450-lens.
I agree about the risks over material things. However, cooperating with criminals doesn't always guarantee peoples' safety.

01-11-2016, 10:38 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I agree about the risks over material things. However, cooperating with criminals doesn't always guarantee peoples' safety.
I think the discussion is on what is the safest course of action. Co-operating gives you the best odds. But there's no guarantees with any course of action. However how you react, does define who you are.
01-11-2016, 10:40 AM - 1 Like   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I think the discussion is on what is the safest course of action. Co-operating gives you the best odds. But there's no guarantees with any course of action. However how you react, does define who you are.
Go back and read the original post Norm.
01-11-2016, 10:44 AM   #64
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Does being a mod give you the right to tell me what to do? Just wondering.

I already read the original post, when it was first posted, and have been following the discussion ever since, where the heck have you been?

Maybe you should go back and read the first post.


Last edited by normhead; 01-11-2016 at 10:53 AM.
01-11-2016, 10:46 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Does being a mod give you the right to tell me what to do? Just wondering.
Where did I imply that it did? You told me what you thought the discussion was about implied that my personal response had nothing to do with the original post. I just suggested that you re-read the original post. Are you saying that my status doesn't allow me to participate in the forums? Because if you are, you are wrong. If you don't want to re-read the original post in context with my previous post fine. Don't engage me further and we will both be happy.

Edit: Nice stealth edit there Norm. I have been around the past 24 hours. There for a minute I thought this was a month old thread.
01-11-2016, 10:59 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Where did I imply that it did? You told me what you thought the discussion was about implied that my personal response had nothing to do with the original post. I just suggested that you re-read the original post. Are you saying that my status doesn't allow me to participate in the forums? Because if you are, you are wrong. If you don't want to re-read the original post in context with my previous post fine. Don't engage me further and we will both be happy.

Edit: Nice stealth edit there Norm. I have been around the past 24 hours. There for a minute I thought this was a month old thread.
Now you have advised me not to engage you further and we'll both be happy. After all you started this little exchange.

1. There is veiled threat in that.
2. You haven't promised not to engage me, if this if plan to work it has to be mutual. and since you are a mod I can't just put you on my ignore list like I would anyone else like you.

So, let's just make a deal. We won't engage with each other. You don't comment on me, I won't comment on you.
01-11-2016, 11:05 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Now you have advised me not to engage you further and we'll both be happy. After all you started this little exchange.

1. There is veiled threat in that.
2. You haven't promised not to engage me, if this if plan to work it has to be mutual. and since you are a mod I can't just put ups on my ignore list like I would anyone else like you.

So, let's just make a deal. We won't engage with each other. You don't comment on me, I won't comment on you.
#1, you responded to my post 61. #2, there is no veiled threat there. My post was as a forum member and I already clarified that. You were the one that implied that me being a moderator was a problem. I won't engage you as a forum member. However, if won't get you a pass if forum rules are broken at some point in the future. Otherwise, every moderator on the forum would be at risk of not being able to post.
01-11-2016, 11:10 AM   #68
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A Tele-Tak makes a hell of a cudgel.

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
However, cooperating with criminals doesn't always guarantee peoples' safety.
I agree. Immediate compliance can make you seem weak rather than wise, and aggressive criminal may smell blood at that point.

As with all travelers, photogs should have an idea about the area they're in, and be watchful.

I don't photograph in urban areas; elsewhere I carry a Bowie knife that, unless I'm in winter garb, is pretty obvious to anyone paying attention. I've never been given a hassle about carrying it.

01-11-2016, 01:55 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by bm75 Quote
Wise words coming from the country who gave us La Cosa Nostra ;) and as a former law enforcement officer that is exactly WHY I carry a gun for mine and others safety

Hey guys....this sounds a little bit offensive! the old motto ' Italy is mafia-pizza-spaghetti-mandolino' is still in use?? Obviously I'm sorry that the name of my country is linked to a criminal organization.We are still fighting that criminal organization and every day many people risk their life or die in the fight. Please serch the web for "Falcone" and "Borsellino" , those judges being killed by Cosa Nostra. That's crime, not Italy or my person. I dislike being labeled in association with any sort of criminal organization. Please don't do it.

You have my unconditioned respect for your position of former LEO and everyone has to thank police for it's activity . You're a professional of the public security: that is good and for sure you've been practised and experienced in jour job so it's a good thing you have a gun and carry it for yours and other's safety.You know how to face high risk situations and You're trained to do that. In Italy it's the same for professionals.

the problem here is for common people. If you give a gun for defence to an unexperienced, untrained person, the risk for casualties raise. And the risk that these guns would be stolen raises too. Police agents are psicologically and technically trained to recognize different levels of risk and offense so consequently react using the reasonable and responsible force as defense(deadly force as the last). Not so is common people: so someone using gun for defense would be deadly shot and his gun stolen. Common people aren't able to recognize different kind of offenders (the skilled crminals or those stupid, drug or drunk people doing the wrong bad thing in the wrong bad way- more dangerous ones with a gun in their hand).
I don't have any intent to discuss what's the best in your country: that's a different law sistem . Here you cannot preventive use the gun. In Italy every deadly shooting involves the word MURDER written in public inquiry papers, and if I were the shooter (for defense), I would have to defend myself tring not to be judged as an offender and imprisoned due to excess of defense causing death of an individual (no matter if it's a criminal). That it's worth a camera? For sure not. That's worth my life.
Best regards. Matteo
I don't think anyone here would advocate shooting or cutting someone over a camera. It is not worth the hassle with lawsuits etc. let alone time involved just straightening things out. Then again if someone comes up and demands my camera I will not just hand it over nor will I look the other way if someone is trying to break into my car. My last resort would be to shoot someone. However if they attack me to get what they want then I will defend myself.
01-11-2016, 02:20 PM   #70
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i promise not to get political here.

I have been mugged before, and my own photography workshop got hit by three well planned assailants who ran up pretending to be joggers and pushed down people and made off with gear into a waiting getaway car.

In addition, i know of dozens of armed and unarmed personal robberies which have occurred around San Francisco in the last year. One of my own friends was tasered and then shot at a popular photo location.

After my workshop got held up, my co-instructor and I began to carry bear spray on a belt holster everywhere we go in the city, but realistically, a determined criminal or more likely, criminals, will be able to take our gear. These are scary times and no place is safe. As a result, I have suspended our workshops this year unless we can hire a dedicated security person with a CCW.

I remember how quickly a knife was put to my eye once from behind and cannot imagine in that situation, to have had time to un-holster a personal weapon in response, so no, there is not a solution to this problem that really involves carrying a concealed weapon, IMO.

I once hid in my vehicle and observed a ring of parking lot thieves in action. They had scouts to identify potential vehicle and walking targets, and a fairly complex alert system to indicate when someone was watching or the police were nearby. These people practice and do it well, so basic security measures such as hiding a purse under a jacket in the floorboards or moving your wallet to your sock, etc... are quite useless, etc.

To answer the OP question, yes, i fear getting robbed of my camera gear, and am thinking about that almost constantly when out on a shoot.
01-11-2016, 04:04 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikeD Quote
I don't think anyone here would advocate shooting or cutting someone over a camera. It is not worth the hassle with lawsuits etc. let alone time involved just straightening things out. Then again if someone comes up and demands my camera I will not just hand it over nor will I look the other way if someone is trying to break into my car. My last resort would be to shoot someone. However if they attack me to get what they want then I will defend myself.
This is absolutely right. everyone has the right to defend himself/herself . The question is how much real consciusness people have of their own self-defense possibilities and how skilled and trained people are. Obviously for a trained policeman those consciousness and skills are much higher than in common people. But in countries where free guns are not allowed, like Italy, the problem is that small criminals search for guns: they enter the houses in which they know people keep guns. And if you're a policeman in active duty and you're working alone for strange reasons (here a patrol unit means at least 2 police agents) or out of the car, in some places you're at risk of being assaulted by organized groups of criminals for the gun/rifle itself. The same for common people with licence to carry a gun. I personally know people being assaulted for that. In that situation being a skilled professional or a well trained person makes the difference (plus having God on our side), not much the caliber of the Beretta (sometimes a good friend). So , in few words: if you carry a gun in some places you'll become a target for criminals much more than for the camera gear you're showing.
01-11-2016, 04:33 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by MikeD Quote
I don't think anyone here would advocate shooting or cutting someone over a camera.
Yet the people sticking a knife or gun in one's face would advocate such behavior. That is the issue. And if they have aimed a lethal weapon at you, especially in an aggressive means such as potential robbery, you should assume they mean to use it.
01-11-2016, 04:51 PM - 1 Like   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet the people sticking a knife or gun in one's face would advocate such behavior. That is the issue. And if they have aimed a lethal weapon at you, especially in an aggressive means such as potential robbery, you should assume they mean to use it.
Weapons are brandished far more frequently than they are used. If someone was shot or stabbed every time someone waved a gun or knife, the obscenely high murder rate in the USA would be higher.

Blanket assumptions don't work. If there's already a weapon pointed at you and you're outnumbered, giving up may very well be safer than fighting.
01-11-2016, 04:53 PM   #74
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Animal attack is unlikely too but it has crossed my mind on occasion.
A sturdy monopod might be effective and worth sacrificing in this event.

Chris
01-11-2016, 05:04 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeSF Quote
i promise not to get political here.

I have been mugged before, and my own photography workshop got hit by three well planned assailants who ran up pretending to be joggers and pushed down people and made off with gear into a waiting getaway car.

In addition, i know of dozens of armed and unarmed personal robberies which have occurred around San Francisco in the last year. One of my own friends was tasered and then shot at a popular photo location.

After my workshop got held up, my co-instructor and I began to carry bear spray on a belt holster everywhere we go in the city, but realistically, a determined criminal or more likely, criminals, will be able to take our gear. These are scary times and no place is safe. As a result, I have suspended our workshops this year unless we can hire a dedicated security person with a CCW.

I remember how quickly a knife was put to my eye once from behind and cannot imagine in that situation, to have had time to un-holster a personal weapon in response, so no, there is not a solution to this problem that really involves carrying a concealed weapon, IMO.

I once hid in my vehicle and observed a ring of parking lot thieves in action. They had scouts to identify potential vehicle and walking targets, and a fairly complex alert system to indicate when someone was watching or the police were nearby. These people practice and do it well, so basic security measures such as hiding a purse under a jacket in the floorboards or moving your wallet to your sock, etc... are quite useless, etc.

To answer the OP question, yes, i fear getting robbed of my camera gear, and am thinking about that almost constantly when out on a shoot.
San Francisco used to seem safe when I visited but it's been 15 years since my last trip. Was I na´ve or have things changed that much?

NYC, meanwhile, has become much safer. I wonder what factors caused 2 cities to diverge so much.
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