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06-22-2016, 11:01 AM - 1 Like   #16
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i don't see this changing any game, but always nice to see what's new in MF.

06-22-2016, 11:22 AM   #17
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Back in the early 2000s, I owned a complete Mamiya 7ii system. It was my favorite travel camera until about 2009 when I finally went completely digital. If I recall correctly, I think I spent over $13,000 US for the Mamiya system back then which in todays dollars would be closer to $17,000 or so. Comparing drum-scanned M7 negatives to my current D800 output, the prints made from the D800 are sharper with better detail, dynamic range, and less noise/grain. If one were to identify the closest inheritor of "the Mamiya 7 market" I would posit that it is the Sony A7R system -- which is a very hard act to follow. So what market is Hasselblad going for with a $14,000 US camera? Not sure. I don't see many Sony users switching. Ditto for CaNikon. Pentax users are very price-conscious so I'm not willing to bet many from that camp either. Likely most existing Hasselblad owners will want to have one to complement their existing system, so that's a given. But who else? The only way I can see this work is if the new mount becomes a "standard" (like M43). Just my 2 cents.

Michael
06-22-2016, 11:29 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
Back in the early 2000s, I owned a complete Mamiya 7ii system. It was my favorite travel camera until about 2009 when I finally went completely digital. If I recall correctly, I think I spent over $13,000 US for the Mamiya system back then which in todays dollars would be closer to $17,000 or so. Comparing drum-scanned M7 negatives to my current D800 output, the prints made from the D800 are sharper with better detail, dynamic range, and less noise/grain. If one were to identify the closest inheritor of "the Mamiya 7 market" I would posit that it is the Sony A7R system -- which is a very hard act to follow. So what market is Hasselblad going for with a $14,000 US camera? Not sure. I don't see many Sony users switching. Ditto for CaNikon. Pentax users are very price-conscious so I'm not willing to bet many from that camp either. Likely most existing Hasselblad owners will want to have one to complement their existing system, so that's a given. But who else? The only way I can see this work is if the new mount becomes a "standard" (like M43). Just my 2 cents.

Michael
They're not going to get too many people converting from the 645Z...value for money is one of the main reasons people adopt Pentax in the first place, and the 645Z is a much better value for the money you pay. In fact, for the cost of the X1D body alone you could get a 645Z and a few lenses...sure, it isn't mirrorless, but it's compact for a medium-format DSLR.
06-22-2016, 11:48 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
Back in the early 2000s, I owned a complete Mamiya 7ii system. It was my favorite travel camera until about 2009 when I finally went completely digital. If I recall correctly, I think I spent over $13,000 US for the Mamiya system back then which in todays dollars would be closer to $17,000 or so. Comparing drum-scanned M7 negatives to my current D800 output, the prints made from the D800 are sharper with better detail, dynamic range, and less noise/grain. If one were to identify the closest inheritor of "the Mamiya 7 market" I would posit that it is the Sony A7R system -- which is a very hard act to follow. So what market is Hasselblad going for with a $14,000 US camera? Not sure. I don't see many Sony users switching. Ditto for CaNikon. Pentax users are very price-conscious so I'm not willing to bet many from that camp either. Likely most existing Hasselblad owners will want to have one to complement their existing system, so that's a given. But who else? The only way I can see this work is if the new mount becomes a "standard" (like M43). Just my 2 cents.

Michael
There was a thread a while back about Ricoh partnering on a mount. A short flange mirrorless MF camera standard would seem to be good for all. Given the size of the mirrorbox, MF seems the most likely to move completely to mirrorless.

06-22-2016, 12:15 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
... prints made from the D800 are sharper with better detail, dynamic range ...
You must be talking about positive film. With BW film I can get more DR ( highlight compression developing ) than my digital camera (advertised 14.5 stops). Remember, you have to subtract 2 to 3 stops from that advertised Engineering DR in digital cameras to get actual "photographer's DR" that you will use.
06-22-2016, 12:31 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul the Sunman Quote
Contrary to some rumours, the sensor size is 44x33, essentially the same as the 645Z, with a similar number of pixels. It is however less than half the weight of the 645Z, and flash syncs all the way up to its maximum speed of 1/2000. It may look very attractive to some potential 645Z customers.
You can take this camera high up to the mountains and still have some room in your backpack for food and gear. If you take the 645Z it's pretty much all you have in the backpack. I hope the hassy is weather sealed to the same level as the pentax. My luck with mirrorless cameras in rougher conditions has not been good.
06-22-2016, 01:06 PM   #22
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This new camera is weather sealed, as are the lenses, plus the lenses are cheaper than the Pentax offerings (the 90 is) and their MTF charts look very very good.

I might very well make the switch after I demo it.

As a field camera, Pentax need to do the same, remove the mirror box and add EVF. But I can't see them doing that, for reasons of slow development times and the Pentaxians love affair with the OVF, plus all their lenses have mechanical aperture, so adaptation to a new lens mount is near impossible, they have shown us that with the K1. So the full electronic lenses win the game again, like Canon lenses have with Sony mirrorless.

It's a very compelling offering and right in the price point of Pentax.
06-22-2016, 02:14 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
UK price is 5,990 but that is plus VAT @ 20%, so actual price is 7,188 for the body only.
As a Channel Islands resident I could get in without the VAT element so would save 1,288. Hmm...

06-22-2016, 02:23 PM   #24
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Remember with the pricing that the Pentax 645s have decreased from original prices. The new lenses are very well priced for a medium format system, I think all of my lenses for my 500 C/M were priced at that or much higher when they were last made, not that I paid anything near that but still 2400 for a MF lens is not unreasonable.
06-22-2016, 02:32 PM - 1 Like   #25
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One issue Pentax will have going torward is, with their recent modest successes everyone will try to mimic their pricing model and steal a forkful of Pentax's slice of the format Pies. That would be OK, except Pentax is too small to simultaneously
  • Introduce and develop K-mount FF
  • Introduce new 645 FF body
  • Extend development of K-mount APSc bodies
  • Develop and introduce modern lenses for all three platforms
  • Develop a Mirrorless presence in any (or all) platforms
  • Extend Q Mirrorless platform (and lenses)
  • Develop and extend (Ricoh-branded) Theta, risking their first-mover advantage
  • Develop brand-level service, marketing and support programs

Ricoh the parent must allocate capital to the Imaging Division to help it mature.
06-22-2016, 05:12 PM   #26
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What really irritates me about commentators and I see it across many sites, is where I see people creating false comparisons. This is in relation to price in particular. It has been commented on here that the launch price of this Hassie is way above the price of a 645Z.

Well of course it is. The Z has been out for nearly two years, and at launch it was I believe $8500. I didn't pay that equivalent. Being a UK resident I paid more than that. This camera is less than $500 above the Z launch price. That's the real comparison on level terms. The Z price has had time to settle. It's had time in the market. Yet many photographers on here have been asking for leaf shutter lenses for the Z. Pentax seemingly is deaf to this. I'm not really interested in leaf shutter as I don't do portraits much. I don't need the synch speed that some photographers need.

While I don't think I will be getting this, this is a threat to Pentax. If they come out with an ultrawide lens and a medium zoom within the next year, then things will most likely change.

Pentax - it's time to move. The price of the Z hasn't changed all the much in the UK. It has come down only 500 at most. Where I bought mine, it has come down by 300. If you are going to move up from FF to MF, and you have a choice of Pentax or Hassie, how likely are you to go for Pentax to save a relatively low amount? This is where Pentax may get caned.
06-22-2016, 05:26 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
645Z has been a smashing success and Hassy wants a piece of the action.
And if this camera can work with legacy lenses* that will float this product until more dedicated lenses are made for it. At present there is no mention of whether the HCD 24mm f/4.8 will be usable on this camera without heavy vignetting or worse , corner shading. The longest lens Hasselblad makes is the HCD 300mm f/4 - pentax still has the FA-645 400mm f/5.6 and the FA-645 100-300mm f/5.6 zoom and if you're willing to part with a portion of your soul: the FA-645 600mm f/5.6. The big drawbacks with this camera( for me, this is) is the 3FR RAW format, and no multi-shot capability, and hasselblads typically expensive** and difficult to source proprietary batteries.

It is a bit premature to say that this will be a groundbreaking camera, but there is clearly substance behind the concept of this camera and from what I see: a LOT of potential - as always time will tell.

*though I'd expect there to be a few caveats involved
** The batteries for my H5D-60 are $290 each, the batteries for my 645Z set me back $70.

Last edited by Digitalis; 06-22-2016 at 05:56 PM.
06-22-2016, 05:41 PM   #28
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IIRC, there was that little kerfluffle when kenspo suggested there might be a 645 FF Pentax MILC. That would upset the league tables.
06-22-2016, 05:46 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
kenspo suggested there might be a 645 FF Pentax MILC
Pentax has mentioned having active interest in developing a camera like this before, if they are indeed working on such a project: things could get very interesting.
06-22-2016, 05:48 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
And if this camera can work with legacy lenses* that will float this product until more dedicated lenses are made for it. At present there is no mention of whether the HCD 24mm f/4.8 will be usable on this camera without heavy vignetting or worse , corner shading. The longest lens Hasselblad makes is the HCD 300mm f/4 - pentax still has the FA-645 400mm f/5.6 and the FA-645 100-300mm f/5.6 zoom and if you're willing to part with a portion of your soul: the FA-645 600mm f/5.6. The big drawbacks in min mind with this camera is the 3FR RAW format, and no multi-shot capability, and hasselblads typically expensive and difficult to source proprietary batteries.

It is a bit premature to say that this will be a groundbreaking camera, but there is clearly substance behind the concept of this camera and from what I see: a LOT of potential - as always time will tell.

*though I'd expect there to be a few caveats involved
You have excellent points as always. I am not sure what is going to happen with this megapixel wars. I do not charge or make enough to justify a 645Z therefore I went for the K1. I am totally happy with the choice given the price and the overall affordability of the package (body plus lenses).

Perhaps if money was no object, I would own the 645Z and the new Hassy. I am a lifetime Pentax fan but how can you forget the legend of Hasselblad. I am glad Hassy is making an effort to stay in the game. It would have been a shame to see a legend go out of business and become a footnote in history. Unfortunately due to budget limitations, I can only support one of the legends albeit in a small way.

---------- Post added 06-22-16 at 05:50 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Pentax has mentioned having active interest in developing a camera like this before, if they are indeed working on such a project: things could get very interesting.
That would be a blast.
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