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09-20-2016, 01:27 AM - 1 Like   #31
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What a marvelous display of marketing it was from Fuji... and it seems to work. "game changer", "outsanding quality", and so on. Let's sum :
- we don't know the size
- we don't know the resolution of the EVF
- they say it's a brand new sensor : OK, call me fool. It's a 2 year old sensor (but a really good one)
- we know nothing about battery life
- they have decided with their new mount to stick forever with "APS-C medium format"


The only really appealing point for me is the lenses they want to propose, and especially the ones pointed by Gavin (23 and 110mm). The rest, not so much.
EVF : not for me, I have never found one that delivers the "wow" effect I have with OVF (especially the 645Z one). The camera is not particularly beautiful, it is not slim at all, more so if you compare with Hasselblad's X1D : this one is slim. Have you seen the back of the Fuji ?


All in all, I think the best offer in term of engineering is the Hasselblad's mirorless : you have mirorless in small package with small sensor, you have access to legacy lenses made for digital and big sensor (and made by Fuji, few will say they are crap), and if you have already an Hasselblad H, it is a perfect light back up. You can share lenses, and get back to H camera for bigger sensor needs.


Still Fuji is a good manufacturer, I don't think this one will be a bad camera in any way, but for the moment, I am really happy with my 645Z which is a joy to use, with the same sensor, with really nice lenses, with magnificent OVF, and alreadyy available ! And which could evolve with bigger sensor. The Fuji never will...

09-20-2016, 01:47 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by CRPhoto Quote
Thanks. Hopefully this will put on pressure on Pentax to release more lenses.
It could equally be a deterent as the market is now split and potential returns have been reduced.
09-20-2016, 02:06 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob L Quote
It could equally be a deterent as the market is now split and potential returns have been reduced.
Maybe but I suspect that having two more 'cheap' medium format systems in the marketplace is going to open it up as a possibility for a lot of photographers who have never thought about it before. If Pentax can keep the 645z pricing well under the other systems I think it will still be an attractive proposition for people but they need some small light prime options as not everyone will want the enormous 28-45 that I love so much
09-20-2016, 02:19 AM   #34
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what, really, is the point of using one manufacturer's output to berate another one? Markets work fine - people buy what they want, don't buy what they don't want. Yes, it's frustrating to be heavily financially invested in a system you believe is going nowhere but at the end of the day, as Digitalis says, a camera is a tool - if it can produce the results you need, it's a good tool, but no tool is perfect - that's where photographers come in.


Last edited by ffking; 09-20-2016 at 02:57 AM.
09-20-2016, 02:49 AM   #35
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It looks interesting, although not to me. Medium format is pretty rich for my blood.

I would just say that I think Fuji just puts their proprietary non-Bayer grid over existing sensors and says that they are their own X-Trans sensors. But I bet Sony is making the same base sensor. X Trans is not necessarily the magic that Fuji claims it is, it is just different.
09-20-2016, 02:52 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by CRPhoto Quote
From the amount of lens I see no "wow" factor, 6 lens...but only 6. The 645Z has access to lots more. Sure, some old ones but I'm sure new ones will keep coming.
Well, let's think of it like this: Fuji is making 6 very, very well-spaced lenses that cover a range that most people could use for 95% of their needs. For instance, I currently own the 55, 120 and 150mm FE lenses, and the 55mm is often not wide enough for a lot of subject matter (45mm would've been nicer) and not long enough at other times (63mm would've been better) and also has a lot of field curvature.

While both the 120 & 150mm are nice for portraits, 150mm is a tad on the long side, and f/4 isn't great. A 110mm f/2 is just what I wanted too. The 90mm f/2.8 is nice as it doubles as a macro lens and has SR, but a jack of all trades is a master of none, and losing 20mm and a stop of light just doesn't sit right.

I also want a wide-angle lens at some point, and the 28-45mm is VERY highly regarded, but of course it doubles the size and weight of an already sizable camera and costs a great chunk of change even if you get one from Japan via eBay. And the Pentax system can't go to 23mm.

Moreover, the flange distance on the Fuji is so short, that I fully expect adapters for other systems to pop up in no time, even letting you use your current Pentax lenses or those from other systems, much like how Leica managed to cover their lack of lenses for the S for the first few years.

QuoteQuote:
As for the EVF, not a fan. Is the sensor the same SONY of is it a Fuji development?
They claim it's a Fuji development, but the fabbing is being done by Sony. Essentially it's likely to be much like the difference between the digital back version of this sensor and the one in the 645Z, which ended up having superior sensitivity. As long as the EVF is nice and fast, and of a high resolution like the one in the Leica SL, I don't think it should be a problem. Having an interchangeable EVF does mean that it can be potentially upgraded in the future.

All-in-all I think I may actually jump ship and sell the Z *if* the Fuji ends up being as good as it sounds on paper and *if* the lenses are capable of resolving the sensor without having to stop down. There's plenty of time to consider this, because all the interesting lenses; the 23mm, 45mm and 110mm, are all launching only towards the end of next year, so Pentax still has a year to make a splash.

For those of us shooting locked down on a tripod in the studio at f/10, I think it'll be more of a side-grade than an upgrade, but for hand-held use outdoors it's potentially enough to make a difference, due to a lack of mirror shock, a smaller and lighter package, and more modern lenses.

Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 09-20-2016 at 02:58 AM.
09-20-2016, 02:53 AM - 2 Likes   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
but no tool is perfect - that's where photographers come in.
Or in my case: this is where having multiple camera systems come in - I work with three different MF systems*, and this is by no means a normal situation for an amateur or even the majority of commercial photographers: I work with the Leica S2 (typ007) for a lot of commercial fashion photography - the leaf shutter lenses allow me to work in ambient light with powerful studio strobes at sync speeds that focal plane shutters cannot match conventionally, I work with the Pentax 645Z for in-studio work where ambient light is controlled and high resolution files are required, and a Hasselblad H5 with a 200Mp multi-shot back capable of producing extremely high resolution still life images and this also sees use for art reproduction.

Each camera I work with brings something different to the table, none of them can do it all. The Fuji camera is a more consumer oriented system, with what appears to be equipped with a focal plane shutter** ( the sync speed of 1/125th on the shutter dial is a dead give away for an FP shutter) ergonomically it might be better designed than the 645Z but from an operational perspective: the Fuji GFX 50S can't do anything better than the 645Z can. In Skilled hands, both cameras are equally capable.


* Four if you want to get technical, I also work with a Phase on IQ260 Achromatic digital back for monochrome and narrow bandpass hyperspectral imaging.
**Be prepared for shutter shock complaints Fuji, this is probably why Fuji isn't making any of their initial lenses longer than 120mm. While Pentax has 645 lenses with AF capability that go all the way to 600mm f/5.6

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-20-2016 at 03:09 AM.
09-20-2016, 03:04 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
the Fuji GFX 50S can't do anything better than the 645Z can.
23mm on a camera half the physical size though... and several times cheaper than a proper tech cam... anyone lugging their cameras out for landscapes and architecture will be jumping with joy.

09-20-2016, 03:08 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by copland35 Quote
This will break the full frame DSLR market and the medium format market in one blow.
Yeah, because that has been preached since the dawn of mirrorless years ago, and it has totally happened
09-20-2016, 03:19 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kolor-Pikker Quote
23mm on a camera half the physical size though... and several times cheaper than a proper tech cam
I'm resisting the urge to point out that until the lens is on the market it is still vaporware, never buy a camera because of a promised lens - it may be the last lens they come out with. Work with what you can get now. I realize that value and quality are very relative and subjective things, but so far there is no pricing information or even any mention of aspherics in the 23mm f/4 lens*. I doubt that lens will be cheap, and the cost of 82mm filters Vs the Pentax 25mm f/4 which can cover full 645 format*** and uses 40.5mm filters.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kolor-Pikker Quote
. anyone lugging their cameras out for landscapes and architecture will be jumping with joy.
Oh I didn't know what I was worried about, all landscapes are shot on MF with a lens 23mm or shorter. Architectural photographers will snub any lens that doesn't offer movements for perspective correction**

* Aspheric elements have a tremendous impact on controlling astigmatism and spherical aberrations in ultra wide lenses.
** Fuji really dropped the ball on that, as it is better to do PC corrections optically than through software where you will lose resolution and image quality and AFAIK there is only one system on the market that offers PC correction capability with MF digital backs with lenses wider than 30mm - but you still have to deal with image quality affecting issues like corner shading.
***so on full format the Pentax 25mm f/4 is significantly wider than the fuji lens.

Last edited by Digitalis; 09-20-2016 at 03:33 AM.
09-20-2016, 03:36 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I'm resisting the urge to point out that until the lens is on the market it is still vaporware, never buy a camera because of a promised lens - it may be the last lens they come out with. Work with what you can get now. I realize that value is a very relative and subjective thing, but so far there is no pricing information or even any mention of aspherics in the 23mm f/4 lens*
The whole system is vaporware and promises at the moment, we're talking about the possibilities.

QuoteQuote:
Oh I didn't know what I was worried about, all landscapes are shot on MF with a lens 23mm or shorter. Architectural photographers will snub any lens that doesn't offer movements for perspective correction
Considering the breadth of complains of the lack of lenses wider than 25/28mm, I'm pretty sure that this is what people have wanted. TS movements on medium format are a rarity outside of tech cams anyway and the odd third-party lens, so I'm not sure what you were expecting. The flange distance is half of Canon's, so at least we'll be able to adapt the 17 & 24mm TS-E lenses. Heck, I think someone will even make an adapter/bellows for tech lenses, as they already have for the A7 series. The format of this Fuji camera open up a lot more possibilities.
09-20-2016, 04:20 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I class this as just another camera. To me Photography isn't a game. Clients are only interested in results - if you can get the most out of the 645D( Or 645Z), what will this new camera bring to the table? more capital expenditure on something you don't really need?

Big deal, "modern" 50mm lenses have designs that can be traced back past 100 years.
Your'e a working pro, sure capital expenditure and client results may mean something to you, but not everybody. I hate to be blunt but I am a well healed amateur who doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs nor expensive hookers and have cash to burn on making my weekend hobby as enjoyable as possible. I bet most users of the Pentax/Fuji MF cameras are the same and only 25% are working pros.

When I have a gripe with a camera and niggling things annoy me, if somebody offers a product that scratches that itch then I am happy to hand over my hard earned.

Each to their own. I see it as a game changer, they have done something that nobody else has done for fear of annoying the purists who love OVFs etc etc etc.

Also, as a bush walker and landscape shooter, why would I want to carry 1500g when I can carry 900g. As for the lenses, whats wrong with wanting to feel rewarded by using a top notch first grade lens and not an old one that has obvious issues.

Heck, all this could be nonsense and the lenses and camera rubbish. If it is then I keep my existing system, if not well....this addresses 95% of my issues as a 645z user, which aren't many but are enough to make me very interested.

Good times ahead, its a blessing for the industry.

---------- Post added 09-20-16 at 09:27 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Oh I didn't know what I was worried about, all landscapes are shot on MF with a lens 23mm or shorter.
All landscapes are not shot at 23 or wider. My best images have been made with the FA 645 80-160mm. But........having a 23mm lens means I don't have to carry a supplementing camera and lens into the field to get to 18mm, which I have now and do carry with me if I think I may need it on the particular day.

As for filters, the absolute best 6 and 10 stop ND filters I have ever tested are the Breakthrough Photography X4 NDs and they don't come in 40.5mm. But I have one in 82mm. That 25mm Pentax was ok but not stellar and they should have replaced it by now.

---------- Post added 09-20-16 at 09:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
**Be prepared for shutter shock complaints Fuji, this is probably why Fuji isn't making any of their initial lenses longer than 120mm. While Pentax has 645 lenses with AF capability that go all the way to 600mm f/5.6
Yes shutter shock with the Z is what I get now and I am hoping that the Fuji is using an electronic first curtain so the shutter shock will be gone. It will be a failure if it has to close the shutter first like the original A7r and 645z has to.
09-20-2016, 05:00 AM - 1 Like   #43
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The pictures of the GFX reveal some interesting design limits & choices:
* ISO dial only goes to 12800: Is that a sign of limited DR or an artificial limit set by Fuji?
* Shutter speed dial only goes to 1 sec: presumably one can do longer shutter times somehow
* the lenses have no distance & DoF scales: presumably the EVF and top plate display this info

The ergonomics look a bit inconvenient for hand-held photography (which would otherwise be easy for a camera this light): The shutter speed dial does not look easy to reach and turn with the thumb (is there a back wheel that overrides it?) And if my left hand is supporting the camera (i.e., fingers on the zoom & focus rings), then I can't change the ISO. In contrast, I love how the K1 lets me control time, aperture, and sensitivity (function dial set to ISO mode) all with the right hand.
09-20-2016, 05:39 AM   #44
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Kudos to Fujifilm and their new GFX 50S mirrorless MF system. It promises to be another new tool for photographers to up their images. However, I am one that simply prefers an OVF over EVF despite the tradeoffs.

If there is one thing I dislike about photography, itʻs experiencing the world from behind a camera. Being in the moment is different than recording the moment and when I decide to shoot, sometimes I wish I was just there, both eyes open and interacting not just capturing as an observer. With an optical finder, I feel more present while the electronic viewfinder is just one more level that removes me from being present.

I guess it comes down to philosophy, ergonomics, and the experience of the process and each individual photographerʻs preferences. And if the competition helps to make the 645Z more affordable, Iʻll join Fujifilm lovers in their joy.

A bit off topic: I am not a historian of Fujica cameras, Fuji Photo, or Fujifilm, but am I correct in thinking that with the start of the Fujifilm DS-300 digital camera in 1997 did they start using that moniker? Even the Fujifilm Instax does not use film. I remember the old Fujica FSLR cameras but was confused when Fuji Photo changed to Fujifilm when the company essentially went digital. I know they had some medium format film cameras....but for me itʻs like 20th Century Fox. Shouldnʻt they change the name already?
09-20-2016, 05:45 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
The pictures of the GFX reveal some interesting design limits & choices:
* ISO dial only goes to 12800: Is that a sign of limited DR or an artificial limit set by Fuji?
* Shutter speed dial only goes to 1 sec: presumably one can do longer shutter times somehow
* the lenses have no distance & DoF scales: presumably the EVF and top plate display this info
1. It's likely an artificial limit, the Leica S 007 goes to 12,500 and doesn't look any worse than the the 645Z, which I wouldn't shoot any higher as from that point on it looks too bad to be worth it. The sensor is ISO invariant anyway, so it's better to push in post than risk losing highlights that you can't bring back.

2. The dials all have automatic positions, which means their functionality can be handed off to the front/back dials, and set arbitrarily. The lack of immediate control for all three settings shouldn't be missed as most people often just shoot at one relevant ISO or have auto-ISO active and only set the aperture and shutter speed. You can just see on the photos that the dial setup is the same as on the Z.

3. Distance scales on modern AF lenses with short focus throw lack the accuracy on high-resolution sensors that's needed for them to be relevant, as you say, it's a much better plan to do what Phase have on the XF and embed distance/DoF data into the top panel based on which lens you have attached, it's a far more elegant and modern solution.

Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 09-20-2016 at 05:51 AM.
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