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09-27-2016, 03:59 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfkiii Quote
This begs the question: If Fugi is building a system from the ground up, why not build the system to prevent this, or rather optimize it? Was adapting lenses on their mind when they made this decision? Does this shorter registration distance make it cheaper to make? Is it a function of the camera being mirrorless? Someone suggested that this allows for lighter weight wide angle lenses.
Some of the 'advantages' are merely theoretical. For instance, a wide angle put on a short registration distance need not have a retrofocal group, but in practice, all the good ones will.

They also hamstrung themselves in another way ... it's apparently impractical for the X-mount to ever cover a full frame sensor.

By going to market before mirrorless PDAF has been perfected, the traditional third party lenses sold by Sigma and Tamron won't work either. The focussing elements are heavy and a lot of momentum changes are required by CDAF motors.

09-27-2016, 04:32 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As to lens design, lenses will be smallest when their focal length is close to the registration distance.
The problem is that they need to cover the diagonal of the format properly, and with a short flange on top of that it means anything wider or longer than the flange will end up being pretty big, and thus negating the advantage of going mirrorless in the first place. The Canon 50mm f/1.2L is a huge lens - especially when you take into account that the focal length is isn't far off from the EOS mount flange distance - but it is still a massive lens, if you made a lens like that [and it was proportional] for 8X10 format, it would be about the size of a watermelon.
09-27-2016, 03:00 PM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
@Copland35:

"The Fujifilm mirrorless body and its lenses places the rear element of each lens very close to the sensor. This creates a resolution advantage with light rays striking the sensor almost perpendicular right across the sensor. The resolution is very high and the artefacts caused by the optics will be greatly reduced."

Other way around.

When rear elements are distant, the light is perpendicular across the frame.

When they are close, they are perpendicular only at the centre. Big problems at the edges.
It always has been the case that wide angle lenses have been designed to place their rear elements close to the film plane. Think distagons, super angulons, early Nikkor wideangles etc. The Hasselblad super wideangle camera designed around the 40mm distagon removed the mirror box to get the rear element near the film. These lenses had large coverage you could tilt and shift them. They have legendary resolution and sharpness across the field without significant distortion. The large image circle gave a flatter field. With the Fuji the principle will be similar. The field will be flattened even more by aspheric elements. There will probably be algorithms correcting the rendering for each lens. The prospect of the 23mm shows Fujifilm's expertise with designing optics. They expect their lenses to withstand 100mp sensors.

Pentax 645 lenses may be as good and competitive, the Fujifilm is a strong design and warrants real attention. I looked at the Hasselblad 645 and that even brings leaf shutters into the game with respectable shutter speeds. The new 645s are smaller and well conceived iterations of the mirrorless camera that move us away from old style mechanics and the need to operate a mirror.
Pentax could develop new lenses and a K-02 using some of the solutions Fujifilm and Hasselblad. I hope Pentax are able to make a statement camera that marries their superb image rendition to a more powerful evf tool.
09-28-2016, 05:30 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by copland35 Quote
I hope Pentax are able to make a statement camera that marries their superb image rendition to a more powerful evf tool.
It will be interesting to see how the announcement of Fuji (and Hasselblad) will influence the future dev. of medium format at Ricoh. Will Ricoh feel a need for a lighter, smaller package at the expense of the optical viewfinder, or do they commit to the existent 645D/z by completing the lens range with weather sealed lenses?

Pentax released the weather sealed 645D back in 2010 and the weather sealed 645z in 2014. Over all these years, Pentax managed to release 4 weather sealed lenses, the 25/4, 28-45/4.5, 55/2.8 and 90/2.8. I hope the announcement of Fuji with the GFX 50S together with 6 weather sealed lenses all scheduled for 2017 urges Ricoh to renew some of the older lenses like the 45-85, 80-160 or 150 with weather sealing.

09-28-2016, 06:31 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by tcom Quote
It will be interesting to see how the announcement of Fuji (and Hasselblad) will influence the future dev. of medium format at Ricoh. Will Ricoh feel a need for a lighter, smaller package at the expense of the optical viewfinder, or do they commit to the existent 645D/z by completing the lens range with weather sealed lenses?

Pentax released the weather sealed 645D back in 2010 and the weather sealed 645z in 2014. Over all these years, Pentax managed to release 4 weather sealed lenses, the 25/4, 28-45/4.5, 55/2.8 and 90/2.8. I hope the announcement of Fuji with the GFX 50S together with 6 weather sealed lenses all scheduled for 2017 urges Ricoh to renew some of the older lenses like the 45-85, 80-160 or 150 with weather sealing.
Yes, although I agree it would be nice to see new weather sealed lenses released and a lighter MF body, I can attest that my 30 year old 645 Pentax primes (not weather sealed and relatively light vs. zooms) never needed weather sealing after trips to dusty deserts in Mexico and Egypt and living in Switzerland (4 years) and shooting in the alps during the winter. Iʻve been in humidity, rain, high altitude cold, and sea level salt air in Hawaii now for 20 years and, knock on wood, my primes remain mold and fungus free and the aperture blades well lubed and remarkably clean.

16 total 645 lenses presently available as "new". Yes, weather sealing is very useful for zooms, but at least with Pentax 645 primes, the lack of weather sealing has not been problematic in my long term experience. The photographers I know that are frequently buying new gear are the ones using gear that needs replacing. Because of backward compatibility and quality construction, there is to some degree less demand for new lenses.

I also appreciate that Ricoh has a lens roadmap and unlike other MF brands, has not gone into extinction. The Fujifilm rabbit has leaped ahead, but the Pentax tortoise will still be around in the marathon.
09-28-2016, 06:39 AM   #126
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Pentax service cancelled the warranty on a 6 months old K-5 IIs I used for half an hour in the fog with the DA15, claiming I used the camera outside what the weather sealing has been designed for.

Because of this experience, when the weather conditions are not so good, I limit myself with the weather sealed lenses on my Pentax cameras, regardless if K-1 or 645z.

I would really want to see a refreshed 48-85 and 80-160 coping better with the high resolution 645z and with weather sealing.
09-28-2016, 06:58 AM - 1 Like   #127
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I seriously doubt Ricoh would develop a mirrorless MF. It would be a huge investment in both the body and the lenses just to enter what is becoming a relatively crowded market (for a product category with very modest total sales). Ricoh/Pentax has no natural advantages in mirrorless MF.

Why compete head-to-head when they can offer something Fuji and Hassy cannot such as OVF, IBIS, or perhaps a true fullsize 645 sensor?
09-28-2016, 07:00 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by tcom Quote
Pentax service cancelled the warranty on a 6 months old K-5 IIs I used for half an hour in the fog with the DA15, claiming I used the camera outside what the weather sealing has been designed for.
Thatʻs really unacceptable to be told that. Nowadays I only use a credit card that has new purchase protections so that regardless of theft, accident, defect, any cause of loss, they will credit back the cost of the item with no questions asked.

I had a recent problem with a Sony product that neither the retailer (BestBuy) nor Sony would resolve. When I then complained to the credit card company, they immediately refunded/credited the amount. I got to chatting with customer service person and he said their number one refund/credit these days are for people crashing their drones or losing them into the ocean or lake. Of course, if you probably abuse the system, theyʻll drop your credit card.

09-28-2016, 12:54 PM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
... The Fujifilm rabbit has leaped ahead, but the Pentax tortoise will still be around in the marathon.
Way back I said that any new entries into the MFD market would have an advantage of not needing to use old film camera registration distances and make smaller cameras. And sure enough here we are. Now lets look further ahead. Maybe soon there will actually be 6x4.5cm sensors in the consumer market. If Ricoh holds onto their 645 registration distance and makes any new lenses cover the full size image circle, then they'd be all set enter that arena without a lot of new lenses needing to be made either.
09-28-2016, 03:52 PM   #130
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You know, pentax could make a lot of people happy if they said "hey we have that big chip from Sony, we'll get it in a updated 645z body in 6 months or so".

Personally, that'd make me stop from buying the fuji.
09-28-2016, 05:19 PM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
You know, pentax could make a lot of people happy if they said "hey we have that big chip from Sony, we'll get it in a updated 645z body in 6 months or so".

Personally, that'd make me stop from buying the fuji.


They could even make people happy by rereleasing the 25mm lens


09-29-2016, 03:11 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
You know, pentax could make a lot of people happy if they said "hey we have that big chip from Sony, we'll get it in a updated 645z body in 6 months or so".

Personally, that'd make me stop from buying the fuji.
It will cost a lot more, Gavin, but I guess in your case you make it a business expense.
09-29-2016, 09:45 AM   #133
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Gavin, my previous post was referring to guys like you

QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
You know, pentax could make a lot of people happy if they said "hey we have that big chip from Sony, we'll get it in a updated 645z body in 6 months or so".

Personally, that'd make me stop from buying the fuji.
When I said that the flange back distance would be an interesting feature, allowing you to use other manufacturers' lenses with an adapter. I think you have that love for that Contax lens...?
09-29-2016, 02:09 PM   #134
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As a working editorial photographer I'm kinda torn given the current situation.

For the moment I will continue to use my 645D as it plugs along just fine and I'm happy with it - but when the shutter goes or when I learn a little more and am compelled about the other systems I might jump ship. 2017 or 2018 probably.
Believe it or not the #1 reason that I consider (and one of my colleagues already did dump his 645D) is the lack of legit Pentax professional support. I would never be screwed as I currently still have my Nikon gear, and a very limited Sony kit (just for walkaround) but I really hate that I have to keep a second brand of back up when I travel, and not much piece of mind either. I would get a 645Z if my mind could be at ease about reliability/support and we could just at least get 1/250 and a better portrait lens!

The new hassy looks great with it's form factor and high sync speeds, but the lens line needs time to see if it gets interesting. The new Fuji I don't love the design of but it has exciting lenses (the 110 f/2 is almost enough alone to get me to switch - I still use a 67 105 2.4 on my Z and while it does the job the lens doesn't perform all that well on the modern day sensor).

They both would seem to have better professional support. Fuji and Hassy both know how to make good skin tones from their sensors, something Pentax hasn't been as good with.

I was primarily a MF film shooter, but the vanguards of MF Digital (hassy and phase one) have traditionally been out of my budget for my sort of work. These new options are exciting. I still wish for a camera that I could own for 10 years and still be happy with it, like a hasselblad v system. You actually had good portrait lenses, no problem with flash sync and good professional support with those cameras. I guess a full 645 frame sensor would sort of help the portrait lens scenario (my 150 2.8 would be a bit nicer to work with - it's a little long as is) There are a lot of new fancy features but the basics have sort of been forgotten about...
09-30-2016, 08:56 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by petrakka Quote
As a working editorial photographer I'm kinda torn given the current situation.

For the moment I will continue to use my 645D as it plugs along just fine and I'm happy with it - but when the shutter goes or when I learn a little more and am compelled about the other systems I might jump ship. 2017 or 2018 probably.
Believe it or not the #1 reason that I consider (and one of my colleagues already did dump his 645D) is the lack of legit Pentax professional support. I would never be screwed as I currently still have my Nikon gear, and a very limited Sony kit (just for walkaround) but I really hate that I have to keep a second brand of back up when I travel, and not much piece of mind either. I would get a 645Z if my mind could be at ease about reliability/support and we could just at least get 1/250 and a better portrait lens!

The new hassy looks great with it's form factor and high sync speeds, but the lens line needs time to see if it gets interesting. The new Fuji I don't love the design of but it has exciting lenses (the 110 f/2 is almost enough alone to get me to switch - I still use a 67 105 2.4 on my Z and while it does the job the lens doesn't perform all that well on the modern day sensor).

They both would seem to have better professional support. Fuji and Hassy both know how to make good skin tones from their sensors, something Pentax hasn't been as good with.

I was primarily a MF film shooter, but the vanguards of MF Digital (hassy and phase one) have traditionally been out of my budget for my sort of work. These new options are exciting. I still wish for a camera that I could own for 10 years and still be happy with it, like a hasselblad v system. You actually had good portrait lenses, no problem with flash sync and good professional support with those cameras. I guess a full 645 frame sensor would sort of help the portrait lens scenario (my 150 2.8 would be a bit nicer to work with - it's a little long as is) There are a lot of new fancy features but the basics have sort of been forgotten about...
You can have high speed sync with the 645D and 645Z if the flash supports it. You just need to get a Cactus V6ii. And that would probably work on the new Fuji as well.
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