Water-damaged 645Z: not covered by warranty?!?!

BrunoL · 10-21-2016, 04:42 AM

I'm reaching out to other 645Z/645D owners to ask if they have experienced something similar with Pentax Japan. I was out shooting with the Z about 2 months ago, and it started raining. No big deal, right? The camera is fully weather sealed, and I had shot in the rain before with it, so no cause for concern. Guess again. The camera literally died on me in the field. I turned it off, removed the battery, nothing working. Did that again after a few minutes, still nothing. Went back home to further inspect the camera. I could not see any visible damage inside the camera. The following day I re-assessed the camera: it was "working", but it would take 45 secs to power on; I couldn't go into live view mode anymore, and the camera made a horrible sound and was extremely slow when trying to auto-focus. Time to send it in for repair.

The camera was still under warranty, so I thought things would go smoothly. I live in Toronto, so I sent it to Ricoh Pentax Canada. It took forever to hear back from Japan. When I did, the estimate I received from Sun Camera Service mentioned the following: "Liquid damage not covered by warranty. Complete overhaul, cleaning, and replacement of minor parts." Am I the only one to have thought that this "fully weather sealed" camera would be covered for liquid damage ...? It's not the $542 that I will have to pay to get the camera serviced that annoys me but the fact that Pentax don't stand behind their top-of-the-line camera. Pentax claim to have one of the best - if not the best - weather sealings in the business, but when comes the time to put their money when their mouth is, they don't deliver. It's not like I dropped the Z in the pool or something. Just typical rain we are talking about, yet it's not covered.

Lesson learned: weather sealing means dust, sand, and whatever is not liquid. The camera is still in Japan, and it's been 2 months already.

I would be curious to hear about your experiences a) shooting in the rain (any problems?) and b) warranty claims (any bad experiences there, especially in terms of liquid damage).

Thanks,

Bruno

Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-21-2016 at 04:54 AM. Reason: Links to site removed per forum rules

**BigMackCam** · 10-21-2016, 05:00 AM

Hi Bruno. Sorry to hear this. Were you using one of the AW weather-sealed lenses? The camera's weather resistance is only as good as its weakest link, and a common cause of water ingress is at the lens mount when using non-AW / non-WR lenses...

Adam · 10-21-2016, 05:08 AM

Sorry to hear about the camera! Liquid damage / water ingress has never been covered under Pentax's DSLR warranty. There are third-party plans that do cover it, however.

Rain breaking your camera is far from typical, especially with AW lenses, but it's always a potential risk. The best thing to do is to be cautious and shield the gear as much as possible while utilizing moving moving parts (focus and zoom rings) as little as possible.

I think part of the reason that many other brands are so conservative with advertising their weather sealing is that they simply don't want users to expose the gear to the elements, ultimately reducing the number of warranty claims received (not that they cover water damage either).

BrunoL · 10-21-2016, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

Hi Bruno. Sorry to hear this. Were you using one of the AW weather-sealed lenses? The camera's weather resistance is only as good as its weakest link, and a common cause of water ingress is at the lens mount when using non-AW / non-WR lenses...

I was using the DA 645 28-45mm f4.5 lens when that happened, and it's a WR lens.

Not a Number · 10-21-2016, 05:16 AM

Unfortunately the warranty specifically excludes water damage (among other things). I'm afraid you're in the same boat (no pun intended) as any other Pentax owner with water damage.

Warranty Information?Support?RICOH IMAGING CANADA
3. This warranty does not cover finishes or batteries, nor does it cover damages resulting from accident, misuse, abuse, dirt, water, battery leakage, tampering, servicing performed or attempted by unauthorized service agencies. This warranty is valid only in the country where this product is purchased. Routine cleaning and normal cosmetic and mechanical wear are not covered under the terms of this warranty. RICOH IMAGING AMERICAS CORPORATION and RICOH IMAGING CANADA shall not be liable for any consequential or incidental damages resulting from any breach of warranty, express or implied, applicable to this product.

Seals fail, and should be checked routinely - a little dust can compromise a seal. For example: When was the last time you checked the seals on your lens mounts, battery or SD card covers?

Royce Howland · 10-21-2016, 05:33 AM

This is pretty typical. As stated by others, not only does the Pentax warranty explicitly exclude water damage, but my experience is that Ricoh service works pretty hard to avoid making good on warranty claims in other circumstances as well. I've had to fight them hard on two occasions to get warranty coverage of something they legitimately should have covered, but which they initially tried to get out of. (Nothing to do with water damage in those cases.) My fastest ever repair took 8 weeks, so your experience with the timeframe is typical as well in my experience.

Ricoh stills makes a lot of marketing noise about the weather sealing of the 645Z. I was at a Pentax-sponsored event just 2 weeks ago, where the regional rep did the usual trick to show the weather sealing of the camera. He placed a 645Z with 90mm macro lens in a plastic bucket and dumped glasses of water over it while it was powered on, then shot a few images around the room before drying it off. To do this kind of live demo, as well as have the online videos showing the same kind of thing for years, and then deny warranty claims for damage from a simple rain shower is misleading at best. Although the company has warranty fine print on their side, you might have cause to fight the issue depending the state of consumer protection legislation in your jurisdiction, given the relatively common practice of Pentax to demo the camera in wet conditions.

I have shot my 645D's and 645Z in rainy conditions. I realize it's a calculated risk, so I take reasonable steps to provide additional water protection around the camera & lens mount. I did have a 645D stop functioning from the rain one time years ago. I stuck the camera in a sealed plastic box with desiccant packs for 2 days, and the camera came back fine. It sounds like your Z was hit harder by the moisture than my D was.

**BigMackCam** · 10-21-2016, 05:34 AM

Originally posted by BrunoL

I was using the DA 645 28-45mm f4.5 lens when that happened, and it's a WR lens.

That is disappointing, for sure. I trust the service centre is aware that you were shooting with that particular lens?

As Adam says, none of the camera manufacturers (at least none that I know of - including Ricoh / Pentax, Nikon, Canon etc.) cover liquid damage in their standard warranties, presumably because it's difficult to manufacture something with so many points of entry (switches, dials, ports, doors, displays) with 100% certainty that there can be no water ingress. It only takes a tiny piece of debris on one of the seals - during assembly, or when the user fits a lens to the camera or opens and closes one of the doors or covers - to compromise the resistance to liquid.

Without an official IP rating for a device, there's never a guaranteed level of dust and water resistance; only a hope that the design helps with both. Not really what you'd want to hear, of course.

LFLee · 10-21-2016, 05:45 AM

Oh come on Ricoh!

542 is not a big number compare to at least 8000 OP fork out for the camera (and more for other stuffs)... I would get it fix for free, when OP wrote a good review of your service and that Ricoh "stand by their product", it is worth more than the 542 you saved. Now instead, you get this kind of negative review.

in this Internet age, I would fire the guy who can't even calculate how much you lost by charging your customer a mere 542... smh.

normhead · 10-21-2016, 06:05 AM

The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside.

DeadJohn · 10-21-2016, 06:12 AM

Pentax won't cover weather damage to a camera or lens even though they advertise weather sealing for rain. It's deceptive.

Maybe contact your local consumer protection agency to see if they can assist. You bought the camera in part because Pentax claimed it was good to use in the rain. That could take a long time to resolve.

normhead · 10-21-2016, 06:14 AM

That would be a mis-interpretation of the term Water Resistant, which is different from Water Proof. Pentax also sells WG waterproof cameras. I Have used my camera in moisture many times and never had a problem, but I was also aware I was taking a chance. The only way I can see this kind of complaint having a chance would be demonstrating that the damage was caused by a manufacturing defect.

**monochrome** · 10-21-2016, 06:16 AM

Originally posted by normhead

The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside.

Therein lies the issue. In practical useage you still have to protect the camera from water ingress - but perhaps not quite so obsessively.

DeadJohn · 10-21-2016, 06:18 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by normhead

The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside.

Accusing customers of lying builds ill will. Broken aperture block - maybe you jammed something into the lens mount. Missing lens release button - maybe you pulled it off with pliers.

---------- Post added 10-21-16 at 09:20 AM ----------

Originally posted by normhead

That would be a mis-interpretation of the term Water Resistant, which is different from Water Proof. Pentax also sells WG waterproof cameras. I Have used my camera in moisture many times and never had a problem, but I was also aware I was taking a chance. The only way I can see this kind of complaint having a chance would be demonstrating that the damage was caused by a manufacturing defect.

If an ad shows a camera covered with water drops or being used in rain, it's a reasonable expectation that the warranty covers such usage.

normhead · 10-21-2016, 06:22 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by DeadJohn

Accusing customers of lying builds ill will. Broken aperture block - maybe you jammed something into the lens mount. Missing lens release button - maybe you pulled it off with pliers.

Letting it be known that you will replace anything on the word of the customer is also a very bad business practice. Despite the protestations of innocence there are a lot of people out there who will happily lie to get a company to replace equipment broken in a non-warranty environment. My policy has always been, if I can't afford to replace something out of pocket, buy a third party warranty. Make it someone else's problem.

Kolor-Pikker · 10-21-2016, 06:24 AM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

If an ad shows a camera covered with water drops or being used in rain, it's a reasonable expectation that the warranty covers such usage.

Well, the camera has been actually tested in extreme conditions, so water damage is something of a freak accident if it does occur. Either way, practically no company will cover water damage for any kind of product, so it's not outrageous to expect this to happen.

10-21-2016, 04:42 AM	#1
BrunoL New Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 20	Water-damaged 645Z: not covered by warranty?!?! I'm reaching out to other 645Z/645D owners to ask if they have experienced something similar with Pentax Japan. I was out shooting with the Z about 2 months ago, and it started raining. No big deal, right? The camera is fully weather sealed, and I had shot in the rain before with it, so no cause for concern. Guess again. The camera literally died on me in the field. I turned it off, removed the battery, nothing working. Did that again after a few minutes, still nothing. Went back home to further inspect the camera. I could not see any visible damage inside the camera. The following day I re-assessed the camera: it was "working", but it would take 45 secs to power on; I couldn't go into live view mode anymore, and the camera made a horrible sound and was extremely slow when trying to auto-focus. Time to send it in for repair. The camera was still under warranty, so I thought things would go smoothly. I live in Toronto, so I sent it to Ricoh Pentax Canada. It took forever to hear back from Japan. When I did, the estimate I received from Sun Camera Service mentioned the following: "Liquid damage not covered by warranty. Complete overhaul, cleaning, and replacement of minor parts." Am I the only one to have thought that this "fully weather sealed" camera would be covered for liquid damage ...? It's not the $542 that I will have to pay to get the camera serviced that annoys me but the fact that Pentax don't stand behind their top-of-the-line camera. Pentax claim to have one of the best - if not the best - weather sealings in the business, but when comes the time to put their money when their mouth is, they don't deliver. It's not like I dropped the Z in the pool or something. Just typical rain we are talking about, yet it's not covered. Lesson learned: weather sealing means dust, sand, and whatever is not liquid. The camera is still in Japan, and it's been 2 months already. I would be curious to hear about your experiences a) shooting in the rain (any problems?) and b) warranty claims (any bad experiences there, especially in terms of liquid damage). Thanks, Bruno Last edited by BigMackCam; 10-21-2016 at 04:54 AM. Reason: Links to site removed per forum rules

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10-21-2016, 05:00 AM	#2
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Hi Bruno. Sorry to hear this. Were you using one of the AW weather-sealed lenses? The camera's weather resistance is only as good as its weakest link, and a common cause of water ingress is at the lens mount when using non-AW / non-WR lenses...

10-21-2016, 05:08 AM	#3
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,595	Sorry to hear about the camera! Liquid damage / water ingress has never been covered under Pentax's DSLR warranty. There are third-party plans that do cover it, however. Rain breaking your camera is far from typical, especially with AW lenses, but it's always a potential risk. The best thing to do is to be cautious and shield the gear as much as possible while utilizing moving moving parts (focus and zoom rings) as little as possible. I think part of the reason that many other brands are so conservative with advertising their weather sealing is that they simply don't want users to expose the gear to the elements, ultimately reducing the number of warranty claims received (not that they cover water damage either).

10-21-2016, 05:14 AM	#4
BrunoL New Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 20 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam Hi Bruno. Sorry to hear this. Were you using one of the AW weather-sealed lenses? The camera's weather resistance is only as good as its weakest link, and a common cause of water ingress is at the lens mount when using non-AW / non-WR lenses... I was using the DA 645 28-45mm f4.5 lens when that happened, and it's a WR lens.

10-21-2016, 05:16 AM	#5
Not a Number Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Venice, CA Posts: 10,526	Unfortunately the warranty specifically excludes water damage (among other things). I'm afraid you're in the same boat (no pun intended) as any other Pentax owner with water damage. Warranty Information?Support?RICOH IMAGING CANADA 3. This warranty does not cover finishes or batteries, nor does it cover damages resulting from accident, misuse, abuse, dirt, water, battery leakage, tampering, servicing performed or attempted by unauthorized service agencies. This warranty is valid only in the country where this product is purchased. Routine cleaning and normal cosmetic and mechanical wear are not covered under the terms of this warranty. RICOH IMAGING AMERICAS CORPORATION and RICOH IMAGING CANADA shall not be liable for any consequential or incidental damages resulting from any breach of warranty, express or implied, applicable to this product. Seals fail, and should be checked routinely - a little dust can compromise a seal. For example: When was the last time you checked the seals on your lens mounts, battery or SD card covers?

10-21-2016, 05:33 AM	#6
Royce Howland Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 275	This is pretty typical. As stated by others, not only does the Pentax warranty explicitly exclude water damage, but my experience is that Ricoh service works pretty hard to avoid making good on warranty claims in other circumstances as well. I've had to fight them hard on two occasions to get warranty coverage of something they legitimately should have covered, but which they initially tried to get out of. (Nothing to do with water damage in those cases.) My fastest ever repair took 8 weeks, so your experience with the timeframe is typical as well in my experience. Ricoh stills makes a lot of marketing noise about the weather sealing of the 645Z. I was at a Pentax-sponsored event just 2 weeks ago, where the regional rep did the usual trick to show the weather sealing of the camera. He placed a 645Z with 90mm macro lens in a plastic bucket and dumped glasses of water over it while it was powered on, then shot a few images around the room before drying it off. To do this kind of live demo, as well as have the online videos showing the same kind of thing for years, and then deny warranty claims for damage from a simple rain shower is misleading at best. Although the company has warranty fine print on their side, you might have cause to fight the issue depending the state of consumer protection legislation in your jurisdiction, given the relatively common practice of Pentax to demo the camera in wet conditions. I have shot my 645D's and 645Z in rainy conditions. I realize it's a calculated risk, so I take reasonable steps to provide additional water protection around the camera & lens mount. I did have a 645D stop functioning from the rain one time years ago. I stuck the camera in a sealed plastic box with desiccant packs for 2 days, and the camera came back fine. It sounds like your Z was hit harder by the moisture than my D was.

10-21-2016, 05:34 AM	#7
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,674	Originally posted by BrunoL I was using the DA 645 28-45mm f4.5 lens when that happened, and it's a WR lens. That is disappointing, for sure. I trust the service centre is aware that you were shooting with that particular lens? As Adam says, none of the camera manufacturers (at least none that I know of - including Ricoh / Pentax, Nikon, Canon etc.) cover liquid damage in their standard warranties, presumably because it's difficult to manufacture something with so many points of entry (switches, dials, ports, doors, displays) with 100% certainty that there can be no water ingress. It only takes a tiny piece of debris on one of the seals - during assembly, or when the user fits a lens to the camera or opens and closes one of the doors or covers - to compromise the resistance to liquid. Without an official IP rating for a device, there's never a guaranteed level of dust and water resistance; only a hope that the design helps with both. Not really what you'd want to hear, of course.

10-21-2016, 05:45 AM	#8
LFLee Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,292	Oh come on Ricoh! 542 is not a big number compare to at least 8000 OP fork out for the camera (and more for other stuffs)... I would get it fix for free, when OP wrote a good review of your service and that Ricoh "stand by their product", it is worth more than the 542 you saved. Now instead, you get this kind of negative review. in this Internet age, I would fire the guy who can't even calculate how much you lost by charging your customer a mere 542... smh.

10-21-2016, 06:05 AM	#9
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside.

10-21-2016, 06:12 AM	#10
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Pentax won't cover weather damage to a camera or lens even though they advertise weather sealing for rain. It's deceptive. Maybe contact your local consumer protection agency to see if they can assist. You bought the camera in part because Pentax claimed it was good to use in the rain. That could take a long time to resolve.

10-21-2016, 06:14 AM	#11
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	That would be a mis-interpretation of the term Water Resistant, which is different from Water Proof. Pentax also sells WG waterproof cameras. I Have used my camera in moisture many times and never had a problem, but I was also aware I was taking a chance. The only way I can see this kind of complaint having a chance would be demonstrating that the damage was caused by a manufacturing defect.

10-21-2016, 06:16 AM	#12
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by normhead The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside. Therein lies the issue. In practical useage you still have to protect the camera from water ingress - but perhaps not quite so obsessively.

10-21-2016, 06:18 AM - 2 Likes	#13
DeadJohn Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: New York Posts: 4,834	Originally posted by normhead The camera manufacturer has no way of knowing if you even had a lens on the camera when water found it's way inside. Accusing customers of lying builds ill will. Broken aperture block - maybe you jammed something into the lens mount. Missing lens release button - maybe you pulled it off with pliers. ---------- Post added 10-21-16 at 09:20 AM ---------- Originally posted by normhead That would be a mis-interpretation of the term Water Resistant, which is different from Water Proof. Pentax also sells WG waterproof cameras. I Have used my camera in moisture many times and never had a problem, but I was also aware I was taking a chance. The only way I can see this kind of complaint having a chance would be demonstrating that the damage was caused by a manufacturing defect. If an ad shows a camera covered with water drops or being used in rain, it's a reasonable expectation that the warranty covers such usage.

10-21-2016, 06:22 AM - 1 Like	#14
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by DeadJohn Accusing customers of lying builds ill will. Broken aperture block - maybe you jammed something into the lens mount. Missing lens release button - maybe you pulled it off with pliers. Letting it be known that you will replace anything on the word of the customer is also a very bad business practice. Despite the protestations of innocence there are a lot of people out there who will happily lie to get a company to replace equipment broken in a non-warranty environment. My policy has always been, if I can't afford to replace something out of pocket, buy a third party warranty. Make it someone else's problem.

10-21-2016, 06:24 AM	#15
Kolor-Pikker Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 344	Originally posted by DeadJohn If an ad shows a camera covered with water drops or being used in rain, it's a reasonable expectation that the warranty covers such usage. Well, the camera has been actually tested in extreme conditions, so water damage is something of a freak accident if it does occur. Either way, practically no company will cover water damage for any kind of product, so it's not outrageous to expect this to happen.