Medium Format mirrorless

plooksta · 12-21-2016, 10:45 AM

With Hasselblad X1D and Fujifilm GFX around the corner, and the occasional complaint about the size and slowness of the Pentax 645D/Z would it make sense for Pentax to take on the mirrorless MF market?

I would guess it would not be so hard, seeing as they have the sensors and all the components with the current MF DSLRs. They also have the mirrorless tech as in Q and K-01, so marrying them both together could produce something extraordinary IMO. I guess it would need a new mount, or could it be done with the existing mount to keep access to the current MF lens lineup?

Add to that some IBIS, some pixel shift high res and some weather sealing and they could be leapfrogging Hasselblad and Fujifilm - both products looking like they are going to nab a large chunk of the pro market in 2017. (that GFX looks damn sexy)

What think ye?

**lithedreamer** · 12-21-2016, 11:00 AM

I don't think medium format mirrorless makes sense for Pentax. Most of the advantages require a new mount, and I just don't see it as being as competitive as continuing to bring down the price of medium format DSLRs. It doesn't feel like it plays to Pentax's advantages of old lenses.

photoptimist · 12-21-2016, 11:20 AM

Most of the bulk of the Pentax 645 comes from the mount. A competitively thin mirrorless requires abandoning the current Pentax MF lens line.

Most of the slowness comes from the electronic challenges of getting high-quality data off a huge sensor -- I doubt the X1D or the GFX will be particularly fast.

You are right that IBIS & PS would be welcome additions to the Pentax system but would add bulk.

Pentax's best option to leapfrog Hassy & Fuji is in producing a full-frame 645 which is something neither of those competitors can do.

**Ed Hurst** · 12-21-2016, 01:49 PM

I think the 100MP sensors offered by Hasselblad and Phase One are full frame. Technically they might be *slightly* smaller than full frame, but within rounding error. And film 645 cameras were not precisely 6x4.5cm either. There were earlier full frame models from both manufacturers too. So we are already in the world of full frame digi MF.

If Pentax is to have a point of difference, it's to deliver full frame MF at a lower price and with the other functional benefits that the Z already embodies. I just hope they offer a sensible lens upgrade path to those of us who have bought DA lenses, which of course won't cover full frame properly.

Na Horuk · 12-21-2016, 03:02 PM

Maybe mirrorless MF could be a little bit cheaper, but it would probably be a little slower. It seems that a rugged, WR MF camera is a niche that Pentax can fill, and I'm not sure mirrorless fits into this. But who knows, maybe that is the future

photoptimist · 12-21-2016, 03:18 PM

Ed Hurst is right about the Hassy & P1 cameras. Full frame 645 film is only 56mm x 41.5 so those 100MP cameras are pretty close to a full frame.

Pentax could certainly take a little air out of the electronics bay behind the sensor but with a flange focal distance almost 2" longer than the Fuji's or Hassy's mirrorless plus a paperweight pentaprism, any "slim" 645 DSLR is still going to be a big fat (lovable!) pig compared to the X1D or GFX.

I think we all agree that where Pentax can shine is in delivering very good performance and a very good price.

(Are there any 6x7 sensors? Bringing the Pentax 6x7 system into the digital age would also be a way to shake things up.)

rbelyell · 12-21-2016, 03:50 PM

another vote for 6x7! sorry, 645 holds zero interest for me.

**monochrome** · 12-21-2016, 03:55 PM - **1 Like**

That air space is a heat sink.

tvdtvdtvd · 12-21-2016, 04:08 PM - **3 Likes**

Since no one has yet said it, I will: OVF. For all the conveniences of mirrorless, EVF still can't match OVF for
resolution or responsiveness. Perhaps someday, but not today. As soon as EVF gets close enough that no
one can really tell the difference, SLRs will then be DOOMED!!! Oh, and battery life; forgot to mention that.
EVF (almost) as good as OVF and at little to no power consumption = SLR DOOMED!!! Until then, the 645
will continue to have an audience.

**Rondec** · 12-21-2016, 05:09 PM - **1 Like**

Seems unlikely to happen. Pentax's two biggest strengths in this market are a decent (not great) lens line up and relatively low price. Creating a mirrorless 645 would mean starting at square one with regard to lenses (you could use an adapter, but it would be unlikely to offer the same functionality as you get currently mounting a Pentax 645 lens on a 645 D/Z). I think it would be a lot more likely that Pentax would create a full frame 645 digital camera than that they would go mirrorless -- and not sure if the Fuji camera could handle a sensor that size.

Silent Street · 12-21-2016, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by rbelyell

another vote for 6x7! sorry, 645 holds zero interest for me.

Another vote for the 6x7!
645 is sooooooooo yesteryear. Come on, shake off the tiny format mentality and go BIG.

KiddiKristjans · 12-22-2016, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd

Since no one has yet said it, I will: OVF.

I second that. One of the greatest draws to medium format for me, is the biiiig goooorgeous viewfinder - I have zero interest in mirrorless cameras altogether so I'm very happy with the 645Z as it is today. The only thing I want from Pentax is a modernized refresh of most of its lenses, faster & quieter autofocus for example, and preferably without costing $4.5k each.

Smolk · 12-24-2016, 11:59 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Silent Street

Another vote for the 6x7!
645 is sooooooooo yesteryear. Come on, shake off the tiny format mentality and go BIG.

When real 645 is too expensive and demanding in terms of processing and memory, D67 is asking the impossible. Not worth the time.

2351HD · 12-24-2016, 03:14 PM

Pentax have a lot of work to do if they are going to launch a full frame 100mp body. Firstly, none of their lenses would hold up, maybe the DFA 90mm but that's it. I can't see how the DFA 35 would hold up, maybe it might.

Then we have the issue of shutter slap, they will need to implement EFC shutter, which should have been in the Z from the start.

The new lenses on the roadmap better be DFA then.

**Ed Hurst** · 12-24-2016, 05:57 PM

I still think that, given how new the 28-45 and 25 DA are, if they go down the full frame route, they need to offer owners a heavily discounted path to DFA equivalents. Otherwise they have pushed their customers with what were the newest and greatest lenses down an obsolete path, wasting their money and goodwill.

12-21-2016, 10:45 AM	#1
plooksta Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 158	Medium Format mirrorless With Hasselblad X1D and Fujifilm GFX around the corner, and the occasional complaint about the size and slowness of the Pentax 645D/Z would it make sense for Pentax to take on the mirrorless MF market? I would guess it would not be so hard, seeing as they have the sensors and all the components with the current MF DSLRs. They also have the mirrorless tech as in Q and K-01, so marrying them both together could produce something extraordinary IMO. I guess it would need a new mount, or could it be done with the existing mount to keep access to the current MF lens lineup? Add to that some IBIS, some pixel shift high res and some weather sealing and they could be leapfrogging Hasselblad and Fujifilm - both products looking like they are going to nab a large chunk of the pro market in 2017. (that GFX looks damn sexy) What think ye?

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12-21-2016, 11:00 AM	#2
lithedreamer Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,799	I don't think medium format mirrorless makes sense for Pentax. Most of the advantages require a new mount, and I just don't see it as being as competitive as continuing to bring down the price of medium format DSLRs. It doesn't feel like it plays to Pentax's advantages of old lenses.

12-21-2016, 11:20 AM	#3
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,122	Most of the bulk of the Pentax 645 comes from the mount. A competitively thin mirrorless requires abandoning the current Pentax MF lens line. Most of the slowness comes from the electronic challenges of getting high-quality data off a huge sensor -- I doubt the X1D or the GFX will be particularly fast. You are right that IBIS & PS would be welcome additions to the Pentax system but would add bulk. Pentax's best option to leapfrog Hassy & Fuji is in producing a full-frame 645 which is something neither of those competitors can do.

12-21-2016, 01:49 PM	#4
Ed Hurst Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,657	I think the 100MP sensors offered by Hasselblad and Phase One are full frame. Technically they might be slightly smaller than full frame, but within rounding error. And film 645 cameras were not precisely 6x4.5cm either. There were earlier full frame models from both manufacturers too. So we are already in the world of full frame digi MF. If Pentax is to have a point of difference, it's to deliver full frame MF at a lower price and with the other functional benefits that the Z already embodies. I just hope they offer a sensible lens upgrade path to those of us who have bought DA lenses, which of course won't cover full frame properly.

12-21-2016, 03:02 PM	#5
Na Horuk Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Slovenia, probably Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,186	Maybe mirrorless MF could be a little bit cheaper, but it would probably be a little slower. It seems that a rugged, WR MF camera is a niche that Pentax can fill, and I'm not sure mirrorless fits into this. But who knows, maybe that is the future

12-21-2016, 03:18 PM	#6
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,122	Ed Hurst is right about the Hassy & P1 cameras. Full frame 645 film is only 56mm x 41.5 so those 100MP cameras are pretty close to a full frame. Pentax could certainly take a little air out of the electronics bay behind the sensor but with a flange focal distance almost 2" longer than the Fuji's or Hassy's mirrorless plus a paperweight pentaprism, any "slim" 645 DSLR is still going to be a big fat (lovable!) pig compared to the X1D or GFX. I think we all agree that where Pentax can shine is in delivering very good performance and a very good price. (Are there any 6x7 sensors? Bringing the Pentax 6x7 system into the digital age would also be a way to shake things up.)

12-21-2016, 03:50 PM	#7
rbelyell Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 95	another vote for 6x7! sorry, 645 holds zero interest for me.

12-21-2016, 03:55 PM - 1 Like	#8
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	That air space is a heat sink.

12-21-2016, 04:08 PM - 3 Likes	#9
tvdtvdtvd Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 1,665	Since no one has yet said it, I will: OVF. For all the conveniences of mirrorless, EVF still can't match OVF for resolution or responsiveness. Perhaps someday, but not today. As soon as EVF gets close enough that no one can really tell the difference, SLRs will then be DOOMED!!! Oh, and battery life; forgot to mention that. EVF (almost) as good as OVF and at little to no power consumption = SLR DOOMED!!! Until then, the 645 will continue to have an audience.

12-21-2016, 05:09 PM - 1 Like	#10
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Seems unlikely to happen. Pentax's two biggest strengths in this market are a decent (not great) lens line up and relatively low price. Creating a mirrorless 645 would mean starting at square one with regard to lenses (you could use an adapter, but it would be unlikely to offer the same functionality as you get currently mounting a Pentax 645 lens on a 645 D/Z). I think it would be a lot more likely that Pentax would create a full frame 645 digital camera than that they would go mirrorless -- and not sure if the Fuji camera could handle a sensor that size.

12-21-2016, 07:20 PM	#11
Silent Street Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Castlemaine, Victoria, AUS Photos: Albums Posts: 1,151	Originally posted by rbelyell another vote for 6x7! sorry, 645 holds zero interest for me. Another vote for the 6x7! 645 is sooooooooo yesteryear. Come on, shake off the tiny format mentality and go BIG.

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12-22-2016, 01:19 AM	#12
KiddiKristjans New Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Reykjavík Posts: 21	Originally posted by tvdtvdtvd Since no one has yet said it, I will: OVF. I second that. One of the greatest draws to medium format for me, is the biiiig goooorgeous viewfinder - I have zero interest in mirrorless cameras altogether so I'm very happy with the 645Z as it is today. The only thing I want from Pentax is a modernized refresh of most of its lenses, faster & quieter autofocus for example, and preferably without costing $4.5k each.

12-24-2016, 11:59 AM - 1 Like	#13
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by Silent Street Another vote for the 6x7! 645 is sooooooooo yesteryear. Come on, shake off the tiny format mentality and go BIG. When real 645 is too expensive and demanding in terms of processing and memory, D67 is asking the impossible. Not worth the time.

12-24-2016, 03:14 PM	#14
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Pentax have a lot of work to do if they are going to launch a full frame 100mp body. Firstly, none of their lenses would hold up, maybe the DFA 90mm but that's it. I can't see how the DFA 35 would hold up, maybe it might. Then we have the issue of shutter slap, they will need to implement EFC shutter, which should have been in the Z from the start. The new lenses on the roadmap better be DFA then.

12-24-2016, 05:57 PM	#15
Ed Hurst Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Sydney Posts: 1,657	I still think that, given how new the 28-45 and 25 DA are, if they go down the full frame route, they need to offer owners a heavily discounted path to DFA equivalents. Otherwise they have pushed their customers with what were the newest and greatest lenses down an obsolete path, wasting their money and goodwill.