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03-15-2017, 02:45 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
if the guys at pentax had the slightest bit of brains they'd issue a press release saying "hey guys, 645z mk2 is in design stage. We expect to release more info in Q4 2017. Hold tight".
They just don't do that. The only way to know that new gear is coming out is when prices drop on existing camera bodies. I think Ricoh hates to set dates because then they have to meet them and if they give hints about what they are working on, then they also steal some of the splash from the new release when they actually announce a new product.

I guess the bigger question has to do with new lenses for medium format and probably not so much with a new camera body, although I'm sure they are working on one.

03-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
I think 645z sales would be near frozen at the moment because of the gfx regardless..
True, but distributors can't blame Ricoh for that.
03-16-2017, 07:12 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
They just don't do that. The only way to know that new gear is coming out is when prices drop on existing camera bodies. I think Ricoh hates to set dates because then they have to meet them and if they give hints about what they are working on, then they also steal some of the splash from the new release when they actually announce a new product.

I guess the bigger question has to do with new lenses for medium format and probably not so much with a new camera body, although I'm sure they are working on one.
I know they don't, but they should. This lack of any info just encourages people to jump ship. Well, the impatient ones anyway

I know quite a few photographers to put it mildly - Near all are talking about the fuji, or trying the fuji. The word pentax never gets mentioned.
03-17-2017, 04:27 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
This lack of any info just encourages people to jump ship. Well, the impatient ones anyway
If you realize, the life cycle for 645Z is 4 years, which will be next year for the replacement. If they say they are working on 645Z Mark II, which I believe they are doing, then it is quite disruptive to the current sale. I think, most important thing to do is releasing lenses from the roadmap.

03-17-2017, 08:14 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by gavincato Quote
I know they don't, but they should. This lack of any info just encourages people to jump ship. Well, the impatient ones anyway

I know quite a few photographers to put it mildly - Near all are talking about the fuji, or trying the fuji. The word pentax never gets mentioned.
Same here, but this kinda baffles me because I don't see the Fuji offering any super clear advantages over the Pentax. If you want the size benefits of mirrorless and a very good fix to the flash sync issue the hassy is the answer. The Fuji has new lenses and is smaller, but not that much smaller. I guess if EVF is that important... IQ seems to not be a good reason to switch since the sensor is the same. Maybe the 110 f/2 is argument enough for some?

I guess if you're buying into a MF system fresh it's worth a look, but Fuji has always felt a little plasticky to me compared to the rest. The hassy and pentax feel much better in hand. I havent' held the GFX but reports say it feels like a blown up XT, which didn't feel that great to me.

I'm still debating switching, but it wouldn't be to the Fuji.
03-17-2017, 12:40 PM   #21
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I follow Fuji GFX news, and you would be surprise that so many people were surprise by the dynamic range of that sensor, and they didn't know the sensor is already that great in Pentax 645Z.

why Ricoh 645Z failed to capture wave like the GFX has everyone excited?
I thought it was the advertisement budget, but no... it's the mirrorless.

There are so many MF glass that can be adapt to the GFX, even some large aperture FF glass. This is the appeal.

PENTAX 645Z next iteration can only compete with GFX if - 1. go mirrorless, or 2. go Full frame 645.
#1 should be the path going forward with WR adapter to use modern 645 lenses.
#2 is just slowing down the dying process (not dying but remain small) and going into a even smaller market segment.

Honestly, I have a plan to buy 645Z "in the future", but now I am looking forward to get GFX instead. As I look forward to use my other MF glass on the body, which is not possible with P645.
03-17-2017, 02:39 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
I follow Fuji GFX news, and you would be surprise that so many people were surprise by the dynamic range of that sensor, and they didn't know the sensor is already that great in Pentax 645Z.

why Ricoh 645Z failed to capture wave like the GFX has everyone excited?
I thought it was the advertisement budget, but no... it's the mirrorless.

There are so many MF glass that can be adapt to the GFX, even some large aperture FF glass. This is the appeal.

PENTAX 645Z next iteration can only compete with GFX if - 1. go mirrorless, or 2. go Full frame 645.
#1 should be the path going forward with WR adapter to use modern 645 lenses.
#2 is just slowing down the dying process (not dying but remain small) and going into a even smaller market segment.

Honestly, I have a plan to buy 645Z "in the future", but now I am looking forward to get GFX instead. As I look forward to use my other MF glass on the body, which is not possible with P645.
A lot of the hype about adapting third party lenses to the GFX is kind of overblown in my opinion. The 35mm lenses that are adapted are already showing to not work so well, showing the effects of the smaller image circle at wide apertures as you'd expect. They are usable, but from what I've read they don't perform all that well, even the venerable Zeiss Otus lenses reported to be disappointing towards the corners and with wide apertures. Also, they lose AF. So, lens adapting works but isn't exactly optimal.

SLR's are still a relevant design for certain types of work. I love mirrorless, but both of these new cameras seem to have pretty noticeable usability issues that don't put them clearly ahead of the Z. I'm not sure I would trust either one to be a smooth operating workhorse as the Z is.
03-17-2017, 03:56 PM   #23
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The thing that hangs most pertinently over the future of Pentax 645 dominance is undoubtedly the availability of new optimised lenses. Second stage currently is what constitutes optimised lenses. Personally I think there is still latitude available for updated lenses that optimise the current 645Z. But future proofing is also an issue. Therefore optimising for a 100MP sensor will both optimise for that and the 51MP sensor and beyond. I have no problem buying a lens optimised for 49MP more than I currently own in sensor terms. I mean that, literally no problem, unless I upgrade to 100MP and find them lacking.

03-17-2017, 04:07 PM   #24
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Anybody know what the crop is on the Phase One 100mp chip?
03-17-2017, 04:40 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Anybody know what the crop is on the Phase One 100mp chip?
Intersecting question, but possibly not relevant to optimising current sensor tech. I think I have been supportive of your line of questioning up to this point. As above I need new lenses optimised for current sensor tech or beyond. Either or both. Both ideally, but the current camera body at 51MP is stellar, and optimised for currency dominates my mind. But again, future proofing is desirable.
03-18-2017, 12:42 AM   #26
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Umm, it's entirely relevant to the conversation.

If Pentax chooses to put a full size 645 100mp chip into the Z body then I am interested to know what the current DFA lenses and FA lenses would be on that body, including any zooms that are to come.

You're the one talking about optimizing new lenses for a 100mp sensor.

Is Pentax going to stick with crop MF, or go full sized. If they stay at crop then where's the advantage to the Pentax over the other 2 competitors??? I believe the answer is Calamari, a big fat 0.
03-18-2017, 05:06 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Is Pentax going to stick with crop MF, or go full sized. If they stay at crop then where's the advantage to the Pentax over the other 2 competitors??? I believe the answer is Calamari, a big fat 0.
I think this to be so as well. Before the GFX and X1D, I said here that Pentax could be fine focusing on 33x44, if it meant better optimization and size reduction of lenses, but now things have changed quite a bit. Pentax with their inherently large mirror box are limited what they can do regardless of sensor size, and the average person who looks at specs more than anything will probably wonder why they would pick a significantly larger camera just for an optical viewfinder, considering many MF photographers focus on using a magnified view on tripod.

At this point, size can be an advantage, since Hasselblad and Fuji have nowhere up to go by design, while the Pentax 645 is still a 645 mechanically. As shown here before, there is a huge amount of dead space inside of the camera even if not taking into account the actual mechanics, so a 645Z mkII could not only house a bigger sensor, but be made smaller at the same time. Just take a look at where the Ф mark is on the top of the camera - the sensor is about half-way inside of the camera body! popping out the tape measure, there's 4cm to the rear controls and 5cm to the point behind the LCD screen. Considering the camera is ~12cm long in total, one could save about 1/4 of the camera's size even without touching anything else. Shave the back off a bit or shift the whole reflex aspect of the camera rearwards, moving the SD card slot to the grip as in most SLRs, which would then let the connectors go in a line and let you keep the second tripod mount.

Even if it means less compatibility with the 28-45mm, they could just add in a crop mode as Sony does with their cameras, at 100mp the pixel density would still be greater when cropped down to a virtual 33x44mm, so you're not really losing anything by going with a bigger sensor no matter how you look at it.
03-18-2017, 08:26 AM - 1 Like   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Anybody know what the crop is on the Phase One 100mp chip?
To answer your question - the Phase crop factor is about 1.06x (for 645) - so the standard 80mm lens would be close to 85mm.
If you are wanting it in 35mm terms, full frame 645 is .62x - so in 35mm terms the phase is about ~.65-.66 crop factor.

But most all but one or two of the pentax 645 lenses would work on the phase's sized sensor if it were implemented.

---------- Post added 03-18-17 at 08:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Umm, it's entirely relevant to the conversation.

If Pentax chooses to put a full size 645 100mp chip into the Z body then I am interested to know what the current DFA lenses and FA lenses would be on that body, including any zooms that are to come.

You're the one talking about optimizing new lenses for a 100mp sensor.

Is Pentax going to stick with crop MF, or go full sized. If they stay at crop then where's the advantage to the Pentax over the other 2 competitors??? I believe the answer is Calamari, a big fat 0.
I disagree - that means Canon and Nikon would have no advantage over the Sony. Just because it's mirrorless doesn't mean it's better. It could be, but mirrorless isn't everything. I own and use mirrorless and slr cameras and while for my purposes I generally use the Sony over the Nikon, if I were shooting the type of pictures I made 3 years ago I wouldn't be able to use the Sony as much. There are still better tools for particular jobs. If the new user reports are anything to go by, the Z sounds like it is still a smoother working experience. Lots of talk of generally fussiness out of the new cameras - reminds me of my X Pro 1 - I loved that camera but Fuji didn't have the kinks worked out of that thing and therefore it was not a replacement for anything. In a few years maybe this will be a different conversation, but a mirror isn't necessarily a liability.
03-19-2017, 05:02 AM - 1 Like   #29
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...and let's not forget a USB3 full bandwidth connection for faster tethering
03-19-2017, 01:31 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
I follow Fuji GFX news, and you would be surprise that so many people were surprise by the dynamic range of that sensor, and they didn't know the sensor is already that great in Pentax 645Z.

why Ricoh 645Z failed to capture wave like the GFX has everyone excited?
I thought it was the advertisement budget, but no... it's the mirrorless.

There are so many MF glass that can be adapt to the GFX, even some large aperture FF glass. This is the appeal.

PENTAX 645Z next iteration can only compete with GFX if - 1. go mirrorless, or 2. go Full frame 645.
#1 should be the path going forward with WR adapter to use modern 645 lenses.
#2 is just slowing down the dying process (not dying but remain small) and going into a even smaller market segment.

Honestly, I have a plan to buy 645Z "in the future", but now I am looking forward to get GFX instead. As I look forward to use my other MF glass on the body, which is not possible with P645.
Your statements are a little problematic.

By definition, medium format is going to be a very small segment of the market. This is true regardless of whether Pentax has a new mount with mirrorless or not. The GFX is not going to be competing, even with the K-1 in sales, much less cameras like the D810.

The whole idea of adapting lenses to medium format is only worthwhile if (as you do), you already own medium format lenses. If you don't, then this whole thing is less attractive.

The older lenses are generally going to be relatively long on a crop medium format camera as well and new glass is probably going to be required to take advantage of the sensor.

The real problem for Pentax is not the mirror, it is the lack of investment in new glass and therefore the impression that the 645z is an unwanted step child that they inherited from Hoya. Put some serious optics on the market and release a full frame medium format mirrored camera and they'll be fine.
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