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09-22-2017, 06:56 AM   #1
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P67 105mm for a bargain, but small scratch on rear element

Hi, Team,

I just received my second copy of the legendary Pentax 67 105mm f/2.4. The first copy was severely yellowed and advertised as not. I sent that one back and tried again.

I got this one for less than $250 (including shipping) which is a big time bargain for this lens. Its another Takumar. The lens looks beautiful - no visible fungus, hazing, balsam separation, etc. The yellowing is moderate. The filter threads are fine and the focus ring is buttery smooth.

However when examined very closely, in the right light, I can see a caret-shaped (^) scratch on the rear element. It is ever so fine. Each arm of the caret is probably 2-3 mm long. It may not even be a scratch in the glass, but the multi-coating. It was advertised as scratch-free.

Will this affect image quality? If no, I'm going to keep it. These lenses are so old, its a miracle they don't all look pretty banged up. If you think it is an image quality risk, I may send it back (again), and try once more.

I'm really happy about the price and I don't think I will beat it any time soon. Maybe I should just be satisfied with it, or even ask for a discount off the price.

What do you think?

Thanks!

09-22-2017, 07:09 AM   #2
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If when you run your fingernail over it you can't feel it, then it should have zero effect on the image.

If it's down into the glass, you might want to run a test roll at very small apertures to see if there are any noticeable effects.
09-22-2017, 08:18 AM   #3
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In my past life as an aerospace industrial photographer, one of the company kits was a Hassy 500 set, with a trio of lenses, 50, 80 & 150,
The 80's shutter had failed at some point, and part of the shutter mechanism had put a gouge near the center of one of the internal elements.
The fix for this gouge was a dab of black paint. The dab of paint was much bigger than the gouge, and not a regular shape. We could never tell images taken with this lens apart from others of the same type. We regularly shot on color negative films, and printed to 8x10 and larger sizes.

I've seen a video online of taking a contemporary kit zoom and gradually destroying it, taking photos through it each step of the way. It took considerable damage to the lens elements before degradation was noticeable.

I'm not saying the loss of quality is not there, but our ability to perceive it is limited.

I think most of us tend to baby our gear,
It's like a new car, the first scratch or ding is very painful, but does not affect the operation of the vehicle.

It sounds like you got a good deal on this lens, if it meets your needs and you plan to use it, not keep it as a collectable in a climate controlled case, then I doubt such a small blemish will be noticeable in regular usage. Even with normal care for our gear, wear and tear is inevitable, as you noted in your initial comments.

Enjoy taking photos with it
09-22-2017, 09:40 AM   #4
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I don't have the link handy, but if you search the blog on lens rentals.com they have a couple of articles relating to their test results when intentionally damaging lens elements. It's gotta be a pretty good knock before it becomes visible. You might enjoy the article.

09-22-2017, 09:45 AM - 1 Like   #5
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Yea check it out, run a few rolls through it.

Also, FYI you can de-yellow a old lens just by letting it sit in the sun on your window sill. The UV will clear that up.

You can also use a LED lamp if you live in Holland, the UK...or Seattle.
09-22-2017, 09:57 AM   #6
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Try for the partial refund anyway - nothing to lose !
09-22-2017, 10:48 AM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by Femto1969 Quote
Will this affect image quality?
No, is the simple answer.
09-22-2017, 11:15 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Irie Quote
Yea check it out, run a few rolls through it.

Also, FYI you can de-yellow a old lens just by letting it sit in the sun on your window sill. The UV will clear that up.

You can also use a LED lamp if you live in Holland, the UK...or Seattle.
Removing Yellow Tint in My Super Takumar Lens - Old Skeeter - YouTube
I'm lucky to have an Ikea in town and will be starting my Jansjo treatment as soon as I decide to keep the lens.

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I will run my nail over it to see if its noticeable and decide from there.

09-22-2017, 11:59 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by 35mmfilmfan Quote
Try for the partial refund anyway - nothing to lose !
I'll voluntarily offer buyers partial refunds if they find a problem I didn't detect when I sell a lens on eBay, but I only offer returns and block future bids from buyers who immediately fish for them.

Why? Because it's d-bag behavior, and people who do so tend to be scammers who don't want to pay a fair price and use the threat of negative feedback or the prospective expense of paying shipping both ways and forgoing restocking fees to pressure honest sellers into discounts. I've sold hundreds of items on eBay, and the vast majority of the times I've gotten an item back after a request for a partial refund, the alleged "problems" don't even exist, or worse, the damage is something that obviously was caused by the buyer in order to force a return after they have buyer's remorse.

$250 for a sample with a what is apparently a single nearly invisible cleaning mark is a steal, and only a real skinflint would push to get more knocked off from such an already low price. If it's a more serious scratch and you decide it's a problem, let the seller make the decision to offer a partial refund himself or just send it back let him sell it to someone who is actually willing to pay the asking price.
09-22-2017, 12:25 PM   #10
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by dcshooter Quote
I'll voluntarily offer buyers partial refunds if they find a problem I didn't detect when I sell a lens on eBay, but I only offer returns and block future bids from buyers who immediately fish for them.

Why? Because it's d-bag behavior, and people who do so tend to be scammers who don't want to pay a fair price and use the threat of negative feedback or the prospective expense of paying shipping both ways and forgoing restocking fees to pressure honest sellers into discounts. I've sold hundreds of items on eBay, and the vast majority of the times I've gotten an item back after a request for a partial refund, the alleged "problems" don't even exist, or worse, the damage is something that obviously was caused by the buyer in order to force a return after they have buyer's remorse.

$250 for a sample with a what is apparently a single nearly invisible cleaning mark is a steal, and only a real skinflint would push to get more knocked off from such an already low price. If it's a more serious scratch and you decide it's a problem, let the seller make the decision to offer a partial refund himself or just send it back let him sell it to someone who is actually willing to pay the asking price.
Thanks for your perspective. I'm new to buying vintage camera gear on Ebay that I intend to depend on. My 67 kit has yet to make me any money, so I've essentially spent $1000 on a hobby kit and on R and D. Therefore I can't justify spending $500 on a pristine 105 copy.

Your value assessment is comforting. Its a great price, its a minor blemish, and everyone is saying the images will turn out just fine.
09-22-2017, 01:50 PM   #11
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I am not suggesting any kind of sharp practice, as you seem to be implying, and it is a pity that as a seller you have had problems with some purchasers. Maybe the OP will be content with the results he obtains from the lens - I certainly hope so. But, if the damage he reported was not mentioned by the seller, and causes him to feel dissatisfied with the transaction, then I feel he has at least a moral right to inform the seller and see if a mutually acceptable solution can be arrived at - which may involve a partial refund. As I said, he has nothing to lose, and on the one occasion I had a problem with a lens from eBay, the seller and I agreed a compromise. As we had done so, I left positive feedback, since he had done as much as he could to rectify the situation. I accept that there are bad purchasers as well as bad sellers, but I do not feel we are dealing with that kind of scenario in this instance.
09-22-2017, 04:33 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Femto1969 Quote
yet to make me any money

I'm in the same boat as you--I just plugged in the IKEA lamp I got off of Amazon to "de-yaller" the beater Super Tak I picked up at KEH for not a lot of money this Spring. Then it's off to Eric for a CLA, and hopefully I'll still be coming in at half the price of those minty eBay offerings. Fingers crossed for both of us--I find it just the perfect FL for what I like to do...if it had just a bit better MFD I'd be a happy camper indeed.


At any rate, what is this "making money" of which you speak, stranger? A close encounter with a roll of Velvia 50 through the scanning process had me looking up all the ramen noodle recipes I'd forgotten since I was an undergrad...
09-22-2017, 11:54 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Irie Quote
Yea check it out, run a few rolls through it.

Also, FYI you can de-yellow a old lens just by letting it sit in the sun on your window sill. The UV will clear that up.

You can also use a LED lamp if you live in Holland, the UK...or Seattle.
Removing Yellow Tint in My Super Takumar Lens - Old Skeeter - YouTube
And I live in Seattle.. OUCH
09-23-2017, 04:58 AM - 1 Like   #14
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For double effect in UV treatment, put a sheet of aluminium foil at the back end of the lens, so the sun rays reflect back through it.
09-25-2017, 01:03 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by CreationBear Quote
I'm in the same boat as you--I just plugged in the IKEA lamp I got off of Amazon to "de-yaller" the beater Super Tak I picked up at KEH for not a lot of money this Spring. Then it's off to Eric for a CLA, and hopefully I'll still be coming in at half the price of those minty eBay offerings. Fingers crossed for both of us--I find it just the perfect FL for what I like to do...if it had just a bit better MFD I'd be a happy camper indeed.


At any rate, what is this "making money" of which you speak, stranger? A close encounter with a roll of Velvia 50 through the scanning process had me looking up all the ramen noodle recipes I'd forgotten since I was an undergrad...
Well, I do hope to sell some silver gelatin or inkjet prints. Currently working on generating my portfolio body, then will be trying to sell some of the bangers.

I'm preparing for my first show currently.

FYI I've got the lens sandwiched between the Jansjo lamp and a sheet of aluminum foil. I'm already seeing some improvement!
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