Originally posted by Thorrulz Hi everyone, I'm currently shooting a with a Nikon D800 and 200 f2, 28-70 2.8, 85g 1.8 and 135 f2 DC lenses. My primary shooting consists of portrait/street photography and was wondering if picking up a digital medium format body such a 645D would be worth the cost. I am seeing some of those bodies starting to show up in around the $2000 range in price so I'm considering making a purchase of one, which of course depends on the feedback I receive from you fellow forum members. If I do pick up a 645D I will be looking at FA lenses in the 200, 150, 75 focal lengths along with a 45-85 zoom. If I sold my current body/lenses I could afford the 645Z but then I am putting all my eggs in one basket which I would prefer not to do unless the Z version is that much better of an option.
Thanks in advance for any feedback you can provide.
Hey there,
I went through the same thinking last year and now use the P645D as a B camera to the D800.
Back in 2013 I rented both the D800E and P645D when deciding to make the jump from crop sensor. Ultimately I realized the D800E was the right choice for me at the time and also as a hobbyist the 645D was more of a dream camera which ran way over my budget for $4000-7000 used / new. The D800E took photos that look pretty amazing right out of the box when combined with lenses like the Sigma 35 1.4. Later on I would have the 24-70, 70-200, 85 1.8, 50 1.4 and a few other lenses.
The P645D I rented was more of a struggle to use in my amateurish hands. My keeper rate was low as I was primarily testing with the 45-85mm zoom with it's relatively small starting aperture. The thing gobbled up light and I was shooting very close to the 1/ shutter speed rule which resulted in more blurry shots than I wanted. I tested it over a weekend getaway so I couldn't really actively check until I got back to my computer. So, while I saw potential at the time, I couldn't justify the high price tag nor the difficulty at treating it like a point-and-shoot type camera.
Fast forward to 2017, I racked up close to 100,000 shots on the D800E and still love the camera. I shoot primarily vacation, street, landscape, family things and other personal projects. Having had some life changes in the past year (baby!) I realized my flirtation with Large format cameras wasn't really realistic anymore so I sold off the camera and lenses I had and entertained the idea of trying out for medium format. At first I thought of going with a digital back as I was craving that medium format look and was inspired by backs like the Leaf Aptus 75 / Mamiya DM33. I had borrowed my company's Phase One IQ180, which contains a bigger than normal sensor compared to the typical 44x33 'medium formats' but found that camera and the back system a little too much for how I wanted to use the camera,
Then I recalled my time with the 645D and found a good deal on these very forums in $2000 price range and took the plunge back in August of last year.
I couldn't be any happier that I did and only wish I went back to the 645D sooner. I immediately purchased the DFA 55 f2.8, FA 150 f2.8, A 120 f4 and more recently the DFA 35mm and FA 80-160.
Here's my thoughts on usability between the two systems:
- I treat the P645D as a day camera. On weekends I use the 645D more often than not lately. Basically if it's sunny, cloudy, or even somewhat overcast, I know I can use the camera reasonably well. I pretty much wouldn't attempt using it at night without a tripod and for indoor low-light scenes, I push it to 800-1000 which creates grainy images. Knowing these limitations I either bring out my D800E or bring both and switch when I need to.
- As you probably know the D800E can handle nearly every scene you throw at it and while I love the camera because the amazing flexibility of the sensor it often lends me to take more photos than I should. Having experimented with large format and still having a Mamiya 7, I know how to shoot slow and the 645D feels like a middle ground between the speed of the D800 / a normal DSLR and that of a film camera. The 645D requires a little more patience (~1fps, up to what feels like 5-10 seconds for review, no liveview, etc)
- The CCD sensor gobbles light compared to the CMOS of the D800. The 645D's ISO 100/200/400/800 looks like the D800's 200/400/800/1600 respectively. It's about double, or maybe even a little more. That said, I try not to push it past ISO800. In daylight situations ISO800 or 1000 doesn't feel as grainy as compared to low-light situations.
- I always read that the bigger mirror flap causes more blur but now that I've had it for a few months I actually feel like I'm getting sharper photos relative to the shutter speed. For example, I can get down below 1/100th or 1/50th with the 645D with 55mm 2.8 and get sharp photos. When I look at some shots I did recently with the D800E and the Sigma 35mm 1.4 at 1/125th, I see some blur that I feel like is coming from that mirror flap and less to do with my hand holding discipline. I haven't quite pinpointed exactly what's going on but it has made me slightly skeptical about my faith in the D800E.
- The P645D sensor blows highlights much more easily than the D800. It's more like slide film in that regard. For extreme dynamic range scenes I underexpose to retain some of the highlights and recover the shadows which handle pretty well and respectably compared to the D800's shadow recovery abilities.
- -The combined weight of the 645D with the 55mm 2.8 weighs only a 100grams more than the D800 + Nikons 24-70 G lens. The 645D feels lighter due to the body being heavier and more boxy which helps give a more solid feel and balance when hand-holding. The D800E now feels a little front heavy with that particular lens and some other in my arsenal.
- -My style of street photography is less in your face and more from afar. The 645D attracts attention and double-takes from the public and other DSLR photographers wherever I go. Perhaps it's because they have never seen such a big camera anymore or for those who know cameras they recognize it and are curious to see one in the wild outside of studio / professional setting. So if you want to be a surprise / in-your-face photographer, this camera might not be for you. At the same time, if you're a good talker I believe the camera has the potential to give yourself some legitimacy toward convincing people that they should let you take their photo. I haven't tried this tactic as I live in Germany and can't sweet / small talk too well as a non-native speaker.
- Lenses. The f2.8 55 and 150 are great and render portraits beautifully. The 150mm achieves that medium format look I couldn't really get with the D800. Perhaps the Nikon 105 1.4 possibly gets close but that's a $2000 lens and it still doesn't render exactly the way I would like. The 150 does get the look I like but I find it almost too close to use outside as a walk-around lens. It also sometimes blurs out the background so much at 2.8 that I find it too much. The 55mm f2,8 is the lens that stays on the camera most. It renders portraits beautifully even though it might be considered wide with it's 40-42mm 35mm equivalent range. I'm toying with the idea of getting the FA 75mm 2.8 but I'm trying to turn off the GAS. I rented the DFA 90mm 2.8 and found the copy I was using was struggle to focus for some reason. It would only lock on maybe 1 out of every 10 shots it felt like. Whereas when I slapped on the 55mm and shot the same scene there was no autofocus locking hesitation. I use the 35mm for more outdoors architectural situations like this abandoned farmhouse somewhere west of Berlin I stumbled upon this past weekend.
- Sharpness. 36MP vs 40MP. We all know it's not exactly about those MP numbers and some side-by-side comparisons I read comparing the two systems always made it seem like the D800 could be close to or just as good. I've since seen that the files from the 645D just sing right out of the camera. You almost don't see the pixels...as weird and non-qualitative as that sounds. The bigger sensor and it being CCD surely contributes to it. Perhaps it's the medium format lenses quality which is said to be hit or miss depending on the lens. The D800E feels less sharp now in many instances. The Sigma 35 1.4 and Nikon 85mm 1.8 are sharp lenses, probably the sharpest that I have, but the rendering of the 645D is quite buttery in comparison. It can be sharp if you want it to be or you can make things fall-off nicely at f2.8.
I never actually tested the 645Z and being that it's CMOS, made by Sony, it's by all reviews and accounts the dynamic range big brother of the D800, I don't doubt that it is anything but spectacular. My workplace recently purchased the Fuji GFX 50 and that camera shares the same sensor as the 645Z. I borrowed the GFX50 out for a weekend and came back less than impressed. It has the medium format look but maybe not quite as much as 645D. Perhaps it was because I only tested with the 32-64 f/4 lens. We don't have any f2.8 lenses for that camera. By all metrics it takes photos that can be recovered better in post compared to the 645D and the lenses are newer designs so it should be sharper but I found them to feel not as amazing as the 645D when looking at them on-screen. (I also didn't like the EVF and the overall body/lens balance compared to the 645D. I'm not an EVF hater, I love it for video on the GH5, just for photos I like my big-boxed mirrored camera) I'm lucky enough to be able to take out the Fuji from my workplace whenever I want but I have no desire.
The main photoeditor at my company (who professionally shoots with a D800) did a comparison between the GFX50, the Nikon D800 and the 645D which I brought to work that day and he said overall he thought the 645D produced the best images. The Fuji was clearly a little sharper but the megapixel difference really didn't matter much to his eyes or my eyes when I looked at the files.
The 645D has a filmic look which I wanted and the CCD sensor gives me that and I wouldn't trade it for anything now. I'm almost tempted to buy a second 645D in case they become scarcer as the years go on. The prices are so rock-bottom relative to other digital medium format systems. Sure I could replace the mirror if it bites the dust but who knows if repairs services will be harder to find or more expensive as the years go on. I fortunately live not too far from a repair shop in Germany that quoted shutter replacement at 695 EUR so I'm good for the short-term but will that be the case in 5 years considering the market trend leading toward a mirrorless world? Will Pentax come out with a successor to the Z or will they go Mirrorless too? Not sure if these questions have any impact on your decision process.
If you think you can live with the slower speed and limitations of the 645D, I totally recommend it. If you think you want flexibility like you get out of the D800, than maybe the Z is what you're looking for. You could always get the D and build up your lens collection knowing you could easily switch to the Z one day if you feel hampered by the D.
I don't have any photos online anywhere, or here on the forums yet, but if you're curious to see any shots with the lenses I mentioned, send me a PM and I can share some photos.