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08-04-2018, 11:09 AM - 2 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrunoL Quote
I make a distinction between the camera and the company. Since purchasing my Z in Aug. 2014, I have been extremely happy with it, so much so that I invested in the system and bought the 28-45mm and 90mm lenses. Outstanding performers. Nothing else to say. I love that camera and those two lenses in particular.

BUT the company itself leaves a great deal to be desired beyond its tight-lipped approach. My biggest gripe is that they have failed to deliver on their lens roadmap. Over the last 4 years, we have seen a revamped 35mm. That's it. Does the company believe in the system and respect those who have bought into the system considering their repeated failures to communicate what the future holds in terms of new bodies, lenses, etc.?

My take is that we aren't going to see a new "Z" any time soon (or new lenses for that matter), and that the recent drop in price is due to the new kids on the block (GFX, X1D) and their new lenses.
I don't think we have any way of knowing what Pentax will or will not do. It's clear that a lot of resources went into the FF move. It's not just the DMF side that has been kept waiting; the APSC people are also complaining. I think the company is so small that they can basically only juggle one ball at a time, and Ricoh I am guessing has been parsimonious with funding, since they've had their own set of problems totally unrelated to Pentax that they failed to foresee.

I think we will see a new DMF model. But I think they won't do an incremental update as they have with the K1 (and arguably in the APSC line), even though some of us might welcome it. So, the new model may be a significant upgrade in some way(s).

As to the lenses, I am in the Rick Denney camp: the ones we have are pretty damn good. For me, I would only like to see a 45 of the same quality as the 35, 55, and 75's; Maybe an upgraded 200; And a TSE. But I am really working very comfortably with the current available lenses.

08-04-2018, 12:53 PM   #17
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I would like to see a new ultra wide prime, new 45-90mm and new 90-180mm lenses. But we won’t see them any time soon or at all.

I prefer zooms for the majority of landscape work because most of my images are done when traveling and I often don’t have the opportunity to go back. The current zooms struggle if you wish to get the most out of the sensor.

Let’s face it, it’s nearly 5 years on and the system needs an update. I used a D850 the other day and it makes the 645z feel very old and basic.
08-04-2018, 04:58 PM - 2 Likes   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by alvaro_garcia Quote
Interesting evaluation. Do you think the 645Z is a clear advantage over the K1 like a full frame is over an APS-C?
On resolution and sensor size, the K1->645 gap is less than the K3->K1 gap.

The potential thin-DoF advantages of the larger sensor in the 645Z probably don't exist because K1 lenses have larger apertures than 645 lenses.

And if your shooting scenarios can handle pixel-shift, then the 645Z is a downgrade on max potential resolution.

But if you want a big serious camera, then the 645Z totally crushes the K1 (and the K1 doesn't offer much physical presence advantage over APS-C DSLR bodies).
08-04-2018, 06:16 PM   #19
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Yes but the overall images and crisp fine detail from the Z still surpasses the K1 in my view.

Ricoh just need to now focus back on 645 and leave the FF camp be for a while, they have what they need for now.

08-05-2018, 07:26 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frank Armstrong Quote
I note that the price of the 645Z has dropped considerably -- down to about $5K currently. Does that mean that a newer model is coming out soon? I bought the 645D five-and-a-half years ago, and was thinking about up-grading to the 645Z. I have been extremely happy with my "D", but would like better high ISO performance. Any opinions?

A newer model will not be priced at $5k. If that is your price point, no sense in waiting. The newest chip from Sony is a 100 MP version sure to be priced above the original pricing of the Z. They could release a 50 MP mirrorless but Pentax has shown no inkling of considering mirrorless.
08-05-2018, 07:42 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrunoL Quote
My biggest gripe is that they have failed to deliver on their lens roadmap. Over the last 4 years, we have seen a revamped 35mm. That's it. Does the company believe in the system and respect those who have bought into the system considering their repeated failures to communicate what the future holds in terms of new bodies, lenses, etc.?

My take is that we aren't going to see a new "Z" any time soon (or new lenses for that matter), and that the recent drop in price is due to the new kids on the block (GFX, X1D) and their new lenses.

I agree. The new lenses are fabulous but, if Pentax keeps getting feedback from the field that the legacy lenses are just fine (I do not hold that opinion), what motivates them to allocate scarce resources to new lenses?
08-05-2018, 11:01 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfkiii Quote
I agree. The new lenses are fabulous but, if Pentax keeps getting feedback from the field that the legacy lenses are just fine (I do not hold that opinion), what motivates them to allocate scarce resources to new lenses?
My sentiments exactly. All the praise from those who get into Pentax 645 for its affordability and legacy lenses who harp on about how they are all more than good enough, well that does not put a positive case forward for Ricoh to want to invest. New releases are driven by consumer demand (mostly) and if there is no demand they will sit idle.

The new DFA and DA lenses are stunning pieces of glass, why you wouldn’t want more is crazy. Sure, if you have no funds and old used lenses are your cup of tea, then by all means, but stop telling the manufacturer that you’re just fine.
08-05-2018, 04:11 PM   #23
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If I owned a D or Z, I would consider looking at the proven winners of the 67 lens line. Because the 645 film lenses and the 67 lenses were designed by the same company, there is the sentiment that they are similar in design type. While that is true in many cases, there are some important exceptions. The 645 legacy glass did not have a Distagon-like lens like the 55mm (latest) on the 67. Nor did the 645 line have an Angenieux Retrofocus variant like the 75 Takumar/Pentax. Both of these would be worth trying with adapter on the Z/D. I believe the 67 had these lenses and not the 645 because the 67 was the company's flagship and got special attention back then.

08-06-2018, 05:35 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by rfkiii Quote
I agree. The new lenses are fabulous but, if Pentax keeps getting feedback from the field that the legacy lenses are just fine (I do not hold that opinion), what motivates them to allocate scarce resources to new lenses?
No revenue flows to Pentax from used lens sales. That's their motivation. The other lenses are a mix, and some DFA's and FA's. As far as allocating resources, I am pretty certain Pentax is not making those decisions based on what forum members talk about on forums. If they were, how does one explain so many apparently ignored suggestions?

---------- Post added 08-06-18 at 09:30 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
My sentiments exactly. All the praise from those who get into Pentax 645 for its affordability and legacy lenses who harp on about how they are all more than good enough,
First, lets look at that phrase "harp on" .... Really, I don't think that those of us who are finding good performance from legacy glass, and showing examples (not me, for reasons stated elsewhere), are harping on, especially when that is often done to rebut numerous comments by a few, including you in large measure. Seems like maybe the pot is calling the kettle black here at best. Personally, my feeling is that it is you who is harping on.
QuoteQuote:
... well that does not put a positive case forward for Ricoh to want to invest. New releases are driven by consumer demand (mostly) and if there is no demand they will sit idle.
See my above comment.

QuoteQuote:
The new DFA and DA lenses are stunning pieces of glass, why you wouldn’t want more is crazy.
So, we're crazy now. Uh, huh. Your comments gain in credibility. But using what's available and finding satisfaction with the results is different than not wanting any new offerings. You are eliding 2 very different things, which is a logical fallacy. I would love to see some new lenses, most especially a new 45.
QuoteQuote:
Sure, if you have no funds and old used lenses are your cup of tea, then by all means, but stop telling the manufacturer that you’re just fine.
None of us who are using legacy glass have told the manufacturer not to produce new lenses, and you know this. Why the effort here to put words in our mouths? That is weird. You have made it very clear on these forums that you are not satisfied, and have done it multiple times. No need to cast aspersions on others or try to advance an idea that we have said things we haven't.

---------- Post added 08-06-18 at 09:31 AM ----------


Last edited by texandrews; 08-06-2018 at 06:32 AM.
08-06-2018, 06:43 AM - 1 Like   #25
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I really, really hesitate to take issue with any of your posts, they are always so great. I'll go out on the thin ice this time....
QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
On resolution and sensor size, the K1->645 gap is less than the K3->K1 gap.
Still a gap though, and my findings are that the resolution is only a part of the equation.
QuoteQuote:
The potential thin-DoF advantages of the larger sensor in the 645Z probably don't exist because K1 lenses have larger apertures than 645 lenses.
maybe true, but thin dof is only one aspect of the comparison. FWIW, maybe only 1% of my work is done to achieve thin dof, so that's a song I don't sing.

QuoteQuote:
And if your shooting scenarios can handle pixel-shift, then the 645Z is a downgrade on max potential resolution.
Well, if we're talking about that, then there's that "if" in there. Also, that's pixel-shift vs. single image, which isn't apples to apples. PS is different from stacking, but not that much. So, stack 4 Z images....

QuoteQuote:
But if you want a big serious camera, then the 645Z totally crushes the K1 (and the K1 doesn't offer much physical presence advantage over APS-C DSLR bodies).
Not exactly sure what you mean here....I think the Z, based on 4 years experience and a 2 meter fall with the camera---I got hurt, but the camera did not---is more robust than the K1....but I think my K1 is pretty robust! And I think it's serious as well, which is why I shoot the 2 cameras in tandem often. Of course, if you're being facetious...
08-06-2018, 08:47 AM - 2 Likes   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
I really, really hesitate to take issue with any of your posts, they are always so great. I'll go out on the thin ice this time....Still a gap though, and my findings are that the resolution is only a part of the equation.
maybe true, but thin dof is only one aspect of the comparison. FWIW, maybe only 1% of my work is done to achieve thin dof, so that's a song I don't sing.

Well, if we're talking about that, then there's that "if" in there. Also, that's pixel-shift vs. single image, which isn't apples to apples. PS is different from stacking, but not that much. So, stack 4 Z images....

Not exactly sure what you mean here....I think the Z, based on 4 years experience and a 2 meter fall with the camera---I got hurt, but the camera did not---is more robust than the K1....but I think my K1 is pretty robust! And I think it's serious as well, which is why I shoot the 2 cameras in tandem often. Of course, if you're being facetious...
First, please don't hesitate to take issue with any of my posts. I can easily be as wrong as the next random person on the internet. And, more importantly, we can both be "right" but have a difference of perspective on to photography that actually brings more enlightenment to the topic.

I agree with most of your points so maybe this is more a case of difference of perspective.

Yes, thin DoF is a niche that only a fraction of photographers seek. And thin DoF is correlated with sensor size making it seem that a 645Z should be better than a K-1 in the same way that the K-1 is better than APS-C for the thin DoF niche. But the correlation breaks down for larger format cameras because they typically have smaller aperture lenses. To replicate the thin-DoF effect of the K-1 and new DFA* 50/1.4, the 645Z user would need something like a 65 mm f/1.8. Unfortunately, the fastest of the 645 lenses are f/2.8.

I agree that comparing 645Z single shot to K-1 PS is a bit apples and oranges but at the end of the day if one is looking for the highest resolution possible, then one might not care if it required an apple or an orange to make it. Stacking might provide the DR of PS, but getting a uniform and consistent boost in resolution is harder with stacking than with PS. Of course, one could also use the 645Z and Brenizer to build higher-resolution images but that's bananas (added to the apples and oranges.)

My last point about camera size is about what fellow photographers, clients, friends, and strangers think when a person shows up with a huge 645Z (or a 4x5 view camera) versus a normal-sized DSLR or a dainty mirrorless. In theory, camera body size should not matter so much. For a great many modest-print-size shooting scenarios, a Micro4/3rds camera can get images that are just as good as the 645Z's. It's only when the light dims or the print gets very large that the DR and resolution of the 645Z can trounce the output of smaller sensor cameras. But the impression that the 645Z makes on others is part of the total equation of camera choice. The 645Z is impressive in a way that no full-frame camera can match.
08-06-2018, 09:21 AM - 1 Like   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
... or a dainty mirrorless.
LOL
I suppose then a Coolpix would be a mere mote in the photographer's eye.
08-06-2018, 03:03 PM - 1 Like   #28
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Pentax wouldnít go mirrorless. That would be following, and despite the whining Iím hearing, and despite the intervals between updates, Pentax has been an absolute leader in this segment. One could argue that neither The X1 nor the GFS-50S would be priced where they are but for the Pentax.

Theyíll go bigger. Thatís the only way they can maintain a leadership position. And theyíll keep the price under $10K.

Personally, Iím glad they donít update every 15 minutes. Iím thinking a new camera every year would mean that I would never become completely at home with it, the way Iím at home with cameras Iíve used for years. The stunning photos everyone loves out of their camera now will be just as good five years from now. In Alaska, I fumbled with the camera too muchósimple lack of familiarity.

Lenses that are truly sharp wide open provide flexibilities and headroom. But first-class professional work was done with the older lenses, and I reckon it can still be doneóby first-class professionals. A redesign of the 45-85 lens to add 1.) speed, 2.) stabilization, 3.) quiet focusing, and 4.) weather-resistance would cover a lot of ground for event pros, particularly wedding photographers. Then do it with an improved 80-160. The standard lens for Canon shooters who do weddings is the 24-70/2.8L, after all, and dilettantes like me use the 24-105/4L. I suspect most pros only update lenses when useful new features are added, or when their old one breaks or gets too beat up. Iím hoping they donít spend too much time at 100% on their monitors. Only amateurs can afford to play that game very much.

Those updates would primarily add convenience and flexibility. Careful photographers can still do first-class work with the older lenses. I would have toóI have rarely in my life been willing to pay what new first-class medium-format lenses cost. I have always built my kits mostly from used stuff.

SLRs donít solve every problem, but then neither does any other kind of camera. Right now, Pentax owns the SLR market for medium format, and that is terrain they can continue to own.

Rick ďthe real advantage to mirrorless is when shooting videoĒ Denney
08-06-2018, 03:39 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
Pentax wouldnít go mirrorless. That would be following, and despite the whining Iím hearing, and despite the intervals between updates, Pentax has been an absolute leader in this segment. One could argue that neither The X1 nor the GFS-50S would be priced where they are but for the Pentax.

Theyíll go bigger. Thatís the only way they can maintain a leadership position. And theyíll keep the price under $10K.
Both the X1D and GFX-50S are crop-sensor 645. Moreover, both have mounts that are incompatible with full frame 645.

The Pentax 645 system should be compatible with a full frame 645 sensor given that it seems to be based on the 645N mount and mirrorbox design.
08-06-2018, 05:39 PM   #30
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I have to wonder about the D-FA lens designation - how many 645N users were likely to buy them to warrant designing them for the full 645 format when a cropped version should be easier & cheaper?

What makes a 'legacy' lens anyway? A lens designed for film (OK they weren't designed for film but for projecting an image onto a flat surface when film was the only option), or one that's out of production? Obviously a lens designed for a crop sensor needs a different (wider) field of view - hence the 25 & 28-45 lenses - but what else marks a lens as 'legacy'? Pentax seem happy to stand by them as part of their flagship camera system. In fact the D & Z were only possible with the existing lens range - Pentax were able to hit the ground running with a full set on day one.
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