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03-28-2019, 07:15 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Hmmm. So the grass wasn't greener?Sounds like a great plan for you.
Yes itís quite obvious where you are going with your comments here.

This was the second time I tested the Fuji MF and I said the same thing after the first occasion, so Iím not hiding anything. I was excited for it when it first released, now Iím not.

As for the switch to FF. I bought into the Pentax MF system when FF wasnít at that level. I donít need more than 50MP for my work and well, the other systems have caught up now. Is it a crime to want to travel with something smaller and lighter, wanting your favorite brand to fulfill that need? It certainly seems like it.

You might also be ok with having all your money tied up in a system thatís not going anywhere, Iím not. It also seems like itís a crime for calling out a brand for not progressing their system. Even Biz-engineer just said in this thread that the lack of perspective from Pentax is putting him off buying into the system, what does that say?

Not to worry, Iím sure youíll have yet another amazing retort up your sleeve for me yet again.

03-28-2019, 08:11 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
Yes it’s quite obvious where you are going with your comments here.
We've had our differences, yes. Although the second bit about the Canon wasn't intended as a slight of any kind. Based on what you have said previously It probably will be something you should look at hard---IIRC, you dislike Sony, which is where I'd go, but then I like the Sony cameras, having had 3 of them.
QuoteQuote:

This was the second time I tested the Fuji MF and I said the same thing after the first occasion, so I’m not hiding anything. I was excited for it when it first released, now I’m not.
I'm a little surprised your dislike is that strong, though.

QuoteQuote:
As for the switch to FF. I bought into the Pentax MF system when FF wasn’t at that level.
sure was mighty close, if you are talking about 2014 and the Z....I had some ancillary professional reasons for acquiring one, and already had an NII and several lenses, so it was a fairly easy decision for me, if painful. I did see in side by side comparisons the differences between the Z and my A7R that wound up meaning I used the Sony less and less until it started gathering dust. But these differences were subtle, and in many subjects might not have been visible. I'm under no illusions about what the general population can see---pretty much nothing that doesn't clobber them over the head, and current political situations here and elsewhere strongly suggest not even then!
QuoteQuote:
I don’t need more than 50MP for my work and well, the other systems have caught up now. Is it a crime to want to travel with something smaller and lighter, wanting your favorite brand to fulfill that need? It certainly seems like it.
Here's the big disagreement between us---not that your needs are what they are---no issues there. But seems to me it's pretty clear, after 2 iterations of cameras, Pentax has by their actions and public statements made it clear what direction they are going. Yet you feel somehow betrayed by that. I suggest you have failed to look the situation square in the eye. And also, the whole"crime" thing. Has anyone here accused you of a crime? That's very silly and defensive on your part. I have suggested that fairly constant negativity on a website dedicated to a certain brand, as opposed to DPR's more general one, gets tiresome. A couple of other people have been called out for that on other forums here I think. But it's no crime, just odd.

QuoteQuote:
You might also be ok with having all your money tied up in a system
Yes, but I don't look at it as having my money tied up. I look at it as having tools at my disposal I can afford that I am using to great effect right now---in fact, maybe unlike you, I'm not even getting the most out of my tools!
QuoteQuote:
that’s not going anywhere
And I didn't buy my gear because it was "going somewhere", I bought it because what was available was useful right now. I could be dead this afternoon....
QuoteQuote:
, I’m not
That's fine, and if that's bothersome then good to make a switch.
QuoteQuote:
It also seems like it’s a crime for calling out a brand for not progressing their system.
I do think it's weird to think Pentax is going to be something other then...Pentax. And again with the crime thing... I think it's really obvious what they've done over the years, and why. I also think it's a minor miracle they are still alive, after the Hoya disaster---unmitigated disaster.
QuoteQuote:
Even Biz-engineer just said in this thread that the lack of perspective from Pentax is putting him off buying into the system, what does that say?
A review of biz-engineer's posting mostly shows moderation and more temperance. And I will admit that I would prefer Pentax to be less sphinx-like in their utterances, and that the lack of forthcoming statements is at best less than helpful---I think pretty much everyone here can agree about that! But I also understand that they seem to be sooooooo Japanese on this score---having spent the last 3 years working on a touring exhibition with some people from Japan, from a major artist's studio, and gotten to be friends with one, I'm not surprised at Pentax. Rather, I am so surprised about the head of Sigma! He's a rare one! Very admirable, looking through a western lens, pun intended.

QuoteQuote:
Not to worry, I’m sure you’ll have yet another amazing retort up your sleeve for me yet again.
My post was not intended so much as an amazing retort, but I found your statement notable, considering your actual experience with the Fuji's. Probably you would not find the Hassleblad's better? Or what about Phase? So, where does that leave us in DMF? I personally circle back around to thinking Pentax is pretty good, all-in---although the Fuji lenses seem to be superior overall, excepting possibly 4 of Pentax's lenses. As for the Canon, as stated, it might be the perfect thing for you based on your needs. I'm skeptical about the new Canon, as I am about the new Nikon's, and about these new mounts. But, Sony made the E mount work for them. I do wonder about Canon's sensor tech---clearly Sony is well in the lead here, by all measurements. Well, we'll see. It's a brand new system, and Canon remains the largest camera company. And Pentax the smallest, or close to it.

Last edited by texandrews; 03-28-2019 at 08:16 AM.
03-28-2019, 01:34 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's dumb, how do you know lenses can resolve 100Mp based on seeing images from a 50Mp sensor?
Well,if you believe the 3 Fuji officials interviewed at Yokahama,its not so Dumb!

"GFX lenses were ALL orignially designed for 100MP resolution",you can read the interview on DPreview(but dont believe them,they are biaZed).

---------- Post added 03-29-19 at 08:02 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
I have to say that the experience of using the Fuji bodies was the most frustrating and unrewarding experience I have had in quite some time. I doubt based on that experience if I will ever own a Fuji body.
You need to give it more time,Fuji devices are a bit different.Did you ride a bike successfully at your first try?

A rewarding experience thats affordable(right now) is the cheap as chips, XE-1,dumb adapter with "older,film era" Pentax glass.It wasnt frustrating for me,just a bit different.Its the method I used to start with Fuji.

The 50R is a similar set up to the XE-3,a very simple to use thing.I'm surprised you found it not to your liking.
03-28-2019, 02:49 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
I have never used lenses quite like them, they just need to put out a high res R body to match.
The mega pixels count doesn't play a big role in the enlargement, the format does. It is so because up-sampling and sharpening remove pixelization and accentuate image details, but the lens imperfection aren't minimized by the pixel count, the more pixel the more visible the lens aberrations. We can verify that, just by comparing a 40Mp image from a Nikon PureView and 40Mp image from a 645D. So, even if Canon release a 50Mp mirrorless camera, you will get 35mm IQ and not more.

---------- Post added 28-03-19 at 22:52 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
Well,if you believe the 3 Fuji officials interviewed at Yokahama,its not so Dumb!
I'll hope people sell their GFX50 and 645Z for a MF 100MP, so that I can get the 50Mp for cheaper, because I know that if I up-sample a 50Mp image to 100Mp, it will be difficult to tell the difference, especially when the lens is stopped down to f16 where the contrast drops well below what 100Mpixel can record. You only get 50Mp on the 5DSr when shooting on a test chart flat on the wall and at f5.6, at f11 the effective res. already drop to 30Mp and by f16 it is less than 24Mp.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 03-28-2019 at 02:58 PM.
03-28-2019, 03:27 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I'll hope people sell their GFX50 and 645Z for a MF 100MP, so that I can get the 50Mp for cheaper,
Yes, that will happen down the track.

The 100S is due out mid year, latest news is they are working hard to get the IBIS working properly which isnt as easy as a smaller sensor size.When the XH-1 arrived,the IBIS wasnt as good as other brands but they corrected plenty with their Kaizen updates.

Once the 100S arrives,the 100R might happen too(no news as yet).That will be a good time to pick up the 50S/R models at bargain(for MF) prices.I'll be keen to see when that time arrives.
03-28-2019, 06:17 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
More contrast in shadow area is a disadvantage for post processing, due to data expansion from zones 0, 1, 2 leading to lower tone gradation when expanded. The best RAW data to work with is when the low contrast is used in between zine 0 and zone V. It is much easy to increase shadow contrast then it is to had to decrease shadow contrast.

---------- Post added 28-03-19 at 07:49 ----------


It's a good case of being biased in your assessment: you believe something that's you believe is going to happen in the future , without facts. This is bias. Good evaluation does rate a system now based on speculation of what might be done in the future.

---------- Post added 28-03-19 at 07:51 ----------


You are assuming and it makes sense to you, it's all very subjective. If you wanted to be correct, you could remove the sense in the video.
Yeah it throws me off a little, one reason why Ive always liked pentax's raw files or an adapted pentax lens on the Fuji such as the 75/135 LS lenses or the k mount 43mm.Those lenses soften up the images just a little bit to where shadows are not as pronounced and giving the images more character.
03-28-2019, 08:52 PM - 2 Likes   #22
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Been reading all the comments here Truth be told, I am tempted by Fujifilm, as they have the 110mm f/2 lens, since I am a portrait guy this will be perfect for my background to subject (model) separation, but you can't beat the value the 645Z is giving with its affordable second-hand lenses ( Got the 150mm 2.8 for such a good deal). I still do prefer an optical viewfinder though for my portraits

I will be traveling to Japan next month, I'm gonna visit Ricoh Pentax Imaging Square at Shinjuku and have them service the 645Z, they told my friend who lives in Yokohama (who will be accompanying me) that it'll take 3 hours to clean and adjust. I'm gonna ask if they can calibrate the FA 55mm 2.8 to the body. I never had Pentax service before, I'll be vlogging my trip and share with everybody here
03-29-2019, 04:11 AM - 1 Like   #23
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I see a lot of comments saying that the Fujis GFX50 will become affordable (or available for a bargain). It is true opportunity if :
- you like EVF (I don't like EVF on these Fuji particularly, they kill the joy to look in a viewfinder, especially when compared to a good OVF like on the Pentax 645s ==> personnal opinion)
- you like the ergonomics : menu system and feeling in your hand. The grip on the Fujis for me, and even more on the R, is not as comfortable as the Pentax, and it gets much worse with heavy lenses ==> personnal opinion). Ergonomics is a personal thing, there is no "good or bad", there is only "you like it or not"
- you can afford the expensive lenses which are not as available and cheap as Pentax ones. If only the body is cheap, is it really an affordable option ?
- you don't already have a Pentax 645Z, because switching from 33x44 50MP sensor to another identical 33x44 50MP sensor doesn't make much sense.

My comments above apply only to those considering GFX50 bodies as cheap option.

Conclusion : feel free to buy and use whatever you want and whatever you like (it will be the most important aspect to enjoy photography), but don't try to declare something superior to another option based on your own preferences, which may be completely opposed to those of other people. Just share your pleasure to use one system and enjoy the great choices you have these days !
:-)

03-29-2019, 11:26 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by SylvainB Quote
I see a lot of comments saying that the Fujis GFX50 will become affordable (or available for a bargain). It is true opportunity if :
- you like EVF (I don't like EVF on these Fuji particularly, they kill the joy to look in a viewfinder, especially when compared to a good OVF like on the Pentax 645s ==> personnal opinion)
- you like the ergonomics : menu system and feeling in your hand. The grip on the Fujis for me, and even more on the R, is not as comfortable as the Pentax, and it gets much worse with heavy lenses ==> personnal opinion). Ergonomics is a personal thing, there is no "good or bad", there is only "you like it or not"
- you can afford the expensive lenses which are not as available and cheap as Pentax ones. If only the body is cheap, is it really an affordable option ?
- you don't already have a Pentax 645Z, because switching from 33x44 50MP sensor to another identical 33x44 50MP sensor doesn't make much sense.

My comments above apply only to those considering GFX50 bodies as cheap option.

Conclusion : feel free to buy and use whatever you want and whatever you like (it will be the most important aspect to enjoy photography), but don't try to declare something superior to another option based on your own preferences, which may be completely opposed to those of other people. Just share your pleasure to use one system and enjoy the great choices you have these days !
:-)
true! i use pentax 645z with 645 and 67 lenses, sony e-mount with sony and zeiss lenses and olympus with small primes and a 300mm tele! think i'll buy a cambo actus to use all my pentax lenses for tilt/shift - but i think now i have to wait for useful things comming on the road! i'm interested in large fine art prints and i think there are 4 options for me! 1. there is a perfect 645z successor 2. hasselblad's x1d successor is much better than the first model 3. fuji will come with a great gfx 100 but with better ergonomics and built quality and design 4. sony will provide a stunning alpha 7riv that makes 44x33 useless! for me it is important to can use my flash system and my lee filter system with all my gear across platforms! this is the most important thing!
03-29-2019, 11:30 PM   #25
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There is the technical comparison and technicalities. The 645 is legendary, the design identity for its category, the Fuji is more like a new mirrorless concept with not prior ancestry.
I've buy a defunct 645 just to have it, the feel of handling it, and contemplating it. I wouldn't buy any defunct GFX for this purpose. GFX is more like a mirrorless digital design with a little larger sensor in it.


The size and shape of the 645 system will catch attention and eventually give a sense of being very special in the mind of the subject being photographed. Models wanting to pause after they see what kind of gear is going to photograph them.
03-30-2019, 02:45 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
We've had our differences, yes. Although the second bit about the Canon wasn't intended as a slight of any kind. Based on what you have said previously It probably will be something you should look at hard---IIRC, you dislike Sony, which is where I'd go, but then I like the Sony cameras, having had 3 of them. I'm a little surprised your dislike is that strong, though.

sure was mighty close, if you are talking about 2014 and the Z....I had some ancillary professional reasons for acquiring one, and already had an NII and several lenses, so it was a fairly easy decision for me, if painful. I did see in side by side comparisons the differences between the Z and my A7R that wound up meaning I used the Sony less and less until it started gathering dust. But these differences were subtle, and in many subjects might not have been visible. I'm under no illusions about what the general population can see---pretty much nothing that doesn't clobber them over the head, and current political situations here and elsewhere strongly suggest not even then! Here's the big disagreement between us---not that your needs are what they are---no issues there. But seems to me it's pretty clear, after 2 iterations of cameras, Pentax has by their actions and public statements made it clear what direction they are going. Yet you feel somehow betrayed by that. I suggest you have failed to look the situation square in the eye. And also, the whole"crime" thing. Has anyone here accused you of a crime? That's very silly and defensive on your part. I have suggested that fairly constant negativity on a website dedicated to a certain brand, as opposed to DPR's more general one, gets tiresome. A couple of other people have been called out for that on other forums here I think. But it's no crime, just odd.

Yes, but I don't look at it as having my money tied up. I look at it as having tools at my disposal I can afford that I am using to great effect right now---in fact, maybe unlike you, I'm not even getting the most out of my tools! And I didn't buy my gear because it was "going somewhere", I bought it because what was available was useful right now. I could be dead this afternoon.... That's fine, and if that's bothersome then good to make a switch. I do think it's weird to think Pentax is going to be something other then...Pentax. And again with the crime thing... I think it's really obvious what they've done over the years, and why. I also think it's a minor miracle they are still alive, after the Hoya disaster---unmitigated disaster.A review of biz-engineer's posting mostly shows moderation and more temperance. And I will admit that I would prefer Pentax to be less sphinx-like in their utterances, and that the lack of forthcoming statements is at best less than helpful---I think pretty much everyone here can agree about that! But I also understand that they seem to be sooooooo Japanese on this score---having spent the last 3 years working on a touring exhibition with some people from Japan, from a major artist's studio, and gotten to be friends with one, I'm not surprised at Pentax. Rather, I am so surprised about the head of Sigma! He's a rare one! Very admirable, looking through a western lens, pun intended.

My post was not intended so much as an amazing retort, but I found your statement notable, considering your actual experience with the Fuji's. Probably you would not find the Hassleblad's better? Or what about Phase? So, where does that leave us in DMF? I personally circle back around to thinking Pentax is pretty good, all-in---although the Fuji lenses seem to be superior overall, excepting possibly 4 of Pentax's lenses. As for the Canon, as stated, it might be the perfect thing for you based on your needs. I'm skeptical about the new Canon, as I am about the new Nikon's, and about these new mounts. But, Sony made the E mount work for them. I do wonder about Canon's sensor tech---clearly Sony is well in the lead here, by all measurements. Well, we'll see. It's a brand new system, and Canon remains the largest camera company. And Pentax the smallest, or close to it.
I think it is pretty clear that at some point Pentax decided that they had to go with a new image processing engine. They have been using the PRIME engine based on a pretty old version of Socionext's Milbeaut engine and it definitely needs an upgrade.

My guess is that this has slowed the release of the 645z sequel as well as the APS-C flagship. I think as well, that they are trying to figure out what their answer to Fuji is. I think they will do one of two things. Either they will go with a full frame medium format sensor in the next version of the camera or they will figure out how to do in body image stabilization with the current size 645 sensor and add features like pixel shift to it. I don't which of those things would be more likely, but honestly, if they could current style pixel shift with a current 645z sensor, that would be something special for a lot of styles of photography.
03-30-2019, 07:53 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think it is pretty clear that at some point Pentax decided that they had to go with a new image processing engine. They have been using the PRIME engine based on a pretty old version of Socionext's Milbeaut engine and it definitely needs an upgrade.
Good guess, based on the K1 to K1mkII revision. Even if the Prime engine wasn't changed, that they did the accelerator chip strongly suggests they are thinking hard about the boards.

QuoteQuote:
My guess is that this has slowed the release of the 645z sequel as well as the APS-C flagship.
Another good guess following from the first one.
QuoteQuote:
I think as well, that they are trying to figure out what their answer to Fuji is. I think they will do one of two things. Either they will go with a full frame medium format sensor in the next version of the camera
And they have an advantage here in that the lenses are almost all compatible with such a move, even if some might not meet the resolution requirements of such a move---I would say that a decent number resolve past the current 50mp.
QuoteQuote:
or they will figure out how to do in body image stabilization with the current size 645 sensor and add features like pixel shift to it. I don't which of those things would be more likely, but honestly, if they could current style pixel shift with a current 645z sensor, that would be something special for a lot of styles of photography.
I agree, they would be a really excellent improvements. But Pentax could do both, in 2 different bodies.
03-30-2019, 08:43 AM - 1 Like   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
That's dumb, how do you know lenses can resolve 100Mp based on seeing images from a 50Mp sensor?
Actually, you can. Given an image containing high-contrast angled black-and-white edges (e.g., a test target with angled black squares and objects such ISO 12233 Test Chart), you can estimate the point spread function for the lens (and sensor anti-aliasing filter) at frequencies much higher than the Nyquist frequency of the sensor. The only proviso is that this estimation process actually under-estimates lens performance if the sensor has an anti-aliasing filter (more complex second-order analyses can actually estimate and remove the effects of that filter to more accurately estimate lens performance independent of the sensor).

The point is that how sharply a sharp high-contrast subject resolves as a sharp high-contrast edge in the image can prove whether the lens under-resolves, matches, or strongly out-resolves the sensor.
03-30-2019, 12:49 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Actually, you can. Given an image containing high-contrast angled black-and-white edges (e.g., a test target with angled black squares and objects such ISO 12233 Test Chart), you can estimate the point spread function for the lens (and sensor anti-aliasing filter) at frequencies much higher than the Nyquist frequency of the sensor.
Yes, ok.. Saying that the GF lenses resolve 100Mp is a subjective claim based on seeing that the lenses looks sharp on the 50Mp sensor. You could also say that Pentax 645 lenses resolve 150Mp if you don't if you accept that 2% contrast is good enough.
03-31-2019, 01:19 AM - 1 Like   #30
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I have been lusting after 645Z for years. Now it is quite close of the point where I could afford it(new). It is almost as much as Fuji. And lens prize is quite close, except for vintage lenses. Having OVF(big one) sounds really nice too, and good handling because this camera would be my ultimate landscape camera, to be used with cloves on also big part of the year(winter). But I believe that for many it is all about having the latest. I know that for some 50 MP(medium format) is not enough. But For me it(645Z) would still be better than what I could get out of it, for years.


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