Come on Pentax where’s next 645 !?

itshimitis · 05-26-2019, 04:55 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by surfar

Super full frame is a term they use.

645z was U$8500 on release in 2014,the Fuji is about the same relative price with state of the(superFF)art.

MF that shoots action,5fps has 8(nine later this year) lenses designed for digital,that are all weather sealed.Stabilised sensor when its needed

The release firmware isnt done yet,its a wait and see what the full capability is.

And the D was $10k at launch, also...

2351HD · 05-26-2019, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

In particular, this quote, Takashi Arai: First of all, we'll continue the 645 line within the Pentax collection. But what we are going to compete against our [rivals with] is not the pricing, but the quality of the picture. [That's what's] most important within the camera. So we will still continue to study and produce a good camera with good image quality: That is also the same within the 645 medium-format line.

I had not seen this. It’s more promising.

Perhaps the delay in the two new zooms was to make them D-FA rather than DA so that they could be used on a full frame 645 sensor.

A larger 645 sensor would give them the advantage they need while still having backwards support for those with DA lenses like the 28-45mm.

regen · 05-26-2019, 11:59 AM

Ok now this new article sounds promising

SylvainB · 05-27-2019, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by 2351HD

I had not seen this. It’s more promising.

Perhaps the delay in the two new zooms was to make them D-FA rather than DA so that they could be used on a full frame 645 sensor.

A larger 645 sensor would give them the advantage they need while still having backwards support for those with DA lenses like the 28-45mm.

If they just revamp film era zooms, then no coverage problem : they will be naturally DFA. I have no idea if they were supposed to be completely new / from scratch... I had never thought about it under this angle.

---------- Post added 05-27-19 at 07:10 AM ----------

Originally posted by rdenney

Capture One making a deal with Fuji but blocking out Pentax makes me angry at Phase One’s childish inconsistency. They said they would not support a medium-format solution because it competed with their medium format products. So much for the purity of that silly position.

Rick “not blaming Pentax” Denney

Disclaimer : I don't defend CaptureOne, I don't use it, and I have no PhaseOne camera...
They change that position of "no support for medium format competitors" just after annoncing that they were exiting the 33x44mm sensor market, saying that it was not real medium format. All this after having sold for years >20K$ camera with such sensors. Funny guys !
If they still do not offer support for Pentax, what can it mean, then ? Pentax not having money, or... Something else ?

mazwick · 05-27-2019, 08:06 AM - **2 Likes**

I guess pentax is facing many design decisions, which have not only consequences on a body, but on lenses as well. One of it is of course full 6x45 format, but also, IBIS yes or no, which AF technology should be integrated in the lenses, electronic shutter technology and so on. And all are interdependent!

I am fine for the moment, as my 645Z got its shutter replaced at 100,300 frames and it is good enough for the next two-three years, otherwise I would have to decided what to do...

repaap · 05-27-2019, 09:29 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by SylvainB

If they just revamp film era zooms, then no coverage problem : they will be naturally DFA. I have no idea if they were supposed to be completely new / from scratch... I had never thought about it under this angle.

they could be also HD FA, like latest HD FA 35/2.

---------- Post added 05-27-19 at 07:10 AM ----------

Disclaimer : I don't defend CaptureOne, I don't use it, and I have no PhaseOne camera...
They change that position of "no support for medium format competitors" just after annoncing that they were exiting the 33x44mm sensor market, saying that it was not real medium format. All this after having sold for years >20K$ camera with such sensors. Funny guys !
If they still do not offer support for Pentax, what can it mean, then ? Pentax not having money, or... Something else ?

it could be that Pentax did them so much damage introducing 10 K model that they still have some bad vibe from that. Well after Ricoh goes for FF 645 too, let’s see what happens then :’D

Gyroscope · 05-29-2019, 05:34 PM

I would like to see Pentax continue development of the 645 line even if for no other reason than with a new body might come more modern lenses. I can't conceive of ever needing a bigger or better sensor than the one that is in the 645Z and it has all the features I want for landscape photography (with the exception of bulb timer) so I will be sticking with it regardless of whether Pentax brings out new 645 stuff. In time when used bodies become cheap enough I will buy a second body for backup and get rid of my K1. I have the 28-45-, 55 & 90 and only wish they would produce a 23mm like Fuji has. I am not interested in all the old film era lenses these need to be fully converted to the modern style lenses starting with the 2 standard zooms otherwise I am afraid they will not be able to keep market share against Fuji.

2351HD · 05-30-2019, 06:03 AM - **1 Like**

I had the 28-45 and replaced it with the new DFA 35mm and although it’s a remake of the old FA 35, it’s as good if not better than the 28-45 because it has no field curvature like the zoom does, plus it’s very sharp.

I did some damage to one of my fingers on my right hand so needed to lighten the camera weight so the zoom had to go. I’m very pleased with the new prime.

If they did the same with the 45-85 and 80-160 as they did the 35 then they should be great. I’m happy for them to keep the aperture ring so that they can be used on other cameras like the K-1 and Canon DSLR as a backup body.

Gyroscope · 05-30-2019, 06:15 PM

Originally posted by 2351HD

I had the 28-45 and replaced it with the new DFA 35mm and although it’s a remake of the old FA 35, it’s as good if not better than the 28-45 because it has no field curvature like the zoom does, plus it’s very sharp.

I did some damage to one of my fingers on my right hand so needed to lighten the camera weight so the zoom had to go. I’m very pleased with the new prime.

If they did the same with the 45-85 and 80-160 as they did the 35 then they should be great. I’m happy for them to keep the aperture ring so that they can be used on other cameras like the K-1 and Canon DSLR as a backup body.

Yes I would also like to add that lens to my kit one day - it is much lighter as you say. The 28-45 is a monster but it covers 90% of the focal range I need in landscape photography so I am stuck with it I guess. A 35mm for travel would be good though.

Upgrading the FA lenses to DFA lenses like the 35 may well be a lower cost option for Pentax but I would rather see them do fully electronic 100% modern AW lenses. How does the autofocus of the DFA 35 differ from the FA35? I don't use autofocus when shooting landscapes in live view but something about the old AF system changes the way live view operates I think. I had a 75mm for a short time and I found that the AF point in live view (which I zoom in on to manually focus) can't be moved around the screen and was stuck in the centre unless it was in AF mode and then I couldn't move the focus ring to manually focus? Something annoyed me about that lens whatever it was.

2351HD · 05-31-2019, 01:56 AM

I will test the AF later and report back but I don’t have any issue.

The main problem with the 3 new lenses is they still have a manual aperture lever, so they still are sitting in the past there.

mikeSF · 05-31-2019, 02:56 PM - **2 Likes**

To the OP, I'll probably eat my words one of these days, but, I remain thrilled at the performance of my 645Z. I cannot imagine a feature or technical spec that is limiting my photography at this point in time. If need be, I could be happy for several more years shooting the same body.

texandrews · 05-31-2019, 04:48 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by mikeSF

To the OP, I'll probably eat my words one of these days, but, I remain thrilled at the performance of my 645Z. I cannot imagine a feature or technical spec that is limiting my photography at this point in time. If need be, I could be happy for several more years shooting the same body.

And everyone should take a deep breath and think about what Mike has said. Preferably after taking a good look at his photographs. Maybe his is not the artistic direction for you, but you can't look at his images and suggest that they aren't excellent in their own milieu. The Z isn't limiting me either. Rather the reverse!

whwang · 05-31-2019, 11:06 PM - **1 Like**

To me, the real problem of 645z is the size of the camera. That size was already the largest among all old 645 film bodies (judged by the flange-back distances), and is inappropriately big for a 44mmx33mm sensor. Because of the unnecessarily large flange-back distance, it's hard to make a good ultra-wide lens or an excellent wide lens, like those on the Fuji. This large camera body only makes (some) sense for a true 645 sensor. I really love my 645z, but I am very disappointed by the choices of wide/ultra-wide lenses on it, especially after comparing pictures taken with Pentax 25mm and Fuji 23mm side-by-side. I hope the next Pentax 645 camera (if there is one) can solve this.

**kaseki** · 06-01-2019, 06:49 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by whwang

To me, the real problem of 645z is the size of the camera. That size was already the largest among all old 645 film bodies (judged by the flange-back distances), and is inappropriately big for a 44mmx33mm sensor. Because of the unnecessarily large flange-back distance, it's hard to make a good ultra-wide lens or an excellent wide lens, like those on the Fuji. This large camera body only makes (some) sense for a true 645 sensor. I really love my 645z, but I am very disappointed by the choices of wide/ultra-wide lenses on it, especially after comparing pictures taken with Pentax 25mm and Fuji 23mm side-by-side. I hope the next Pentax 645 camera (if there is one) can solve this.

My perspective: Given the modern ability to stitch together images in post processing -- images potentially taken with medium-angle lenses that can always beat ultra-wide-angle lenses in lower non-uniformity, aberrations, and distortions -- ultra-wide lenses' role would seem to be more limited than before the age of massive processing power on one's desk. Ultra-wide angle might now only be necessary for certain dynamic scenes that wouldn't be normally taken with long telephoto lenses -- perhaps billowing sails seen from the sailboat's deck, huge flocks of flamingos taking flight, etc. My perspective should not be taken to infer that as a hobbyist, I would not enjoy a lens with an unusual quality; I do have an Arsenal fish-eye for my 645s, for example. Even more "fisheye" field width could be of interest (at used lens prices). But where does the desired scene boundary stop? Do I need 645 resolution when one of the Ricoh devices could provide an extreme image width for a single shot?

Some very nice stitched panoramic examples may be seen in Glenn Randall's book, The Art, Science, and Craft of Great Landscape Photography.

mikeSF · 06-01-2019, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by texandrews

And everyone should take a deep breath and think about what Mike has said. Preferably after taking a good look at his photographs. Maybe his is not the artistic direction for you, but you can't look at his images and suggest that they aren't excellent in their own milieu. The Z isn't limiting me either. Rather the reverse!

super nice of you, thx!

05-26-2019, 11:59 AM	#48
regen New Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Toronto Posts: 9 Original Poster	Ok now this new article sounds promising Last edited by regen; 05-26-2019 at 12:42 PM.

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05-26-2019, 04:55 AM - 1 Like	#46
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by surfar Super full frame is a term they use. 645z was U$8500 on release in 2014,the Fuji is about the same relative price with state of the(superFF)art. MF that shoots action,5fps has 8(nine later this year) lenses designed for digital,that are all weather sealed.Stabilised sensor when its needed The release firmware isnt done yet,its a wait and see what the full capability is. And the D was $10k at launch, also...

05-26-2019, 10:26 AM	#47
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	Originally posted by Rondec In particular, this quote, Takashi Arai: First of all, we'll continue the 645 line within the Pentax collection. But what we are going to compete against our [rivals with] is not the pricing, but the quality of the picture. [That's what's] most important within the camera. So we will still continue to study and produce a good camera with good image quality: That is also the same within the 645 medium-format line. I had not seen this. It’s more promising. Perhaps the delay in the two new zooms was to make them D-FA rather than DA so that they could be used on a full frame 645 sensor. A larger 645 sensor would give them the advantage they need while still having backwards support for those with DA lenses like the 28-45mm.

05-27-2019, 07:04 AM	#49
SylvainB Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Paris area Posts: 215	Originally posted by 2351HD I had not seen this. It’s more promising. Perhaps the delay in the two new zooms was to make them D-FA rather than DA so that they could be used on a full frame 645 sensor. A larger 645 sensor would give them the advantage they need while still having backwards support for those with DA lenses like the 28-45mm. If they just revamp film era zooms, then no coverage problem : they will be naturally DFA. I have no idea if they were supposed to be completely new / from scratch... I had never thought about it under this angle. ---------- Post added 05-27-19 at 07:10 AM ---------- Originally posted by rdenney Capture One making a deal with Fuji but blocking out Pentax makes me angry at Phase One’s childish inconsistency. They said they would not support a medium-format solution because it competed with their medium format products. So much for the purity of that silly position. Rick “not blaming Pentax” Denney Disclaimer : I don't defend CaptureOne, I don't use it, and I have no PhaseOne camera... They change that position of "no support for medium format competitors" just after annoncing that they were exiting the 33x44mm sensor market, saying that it was not real medium format. All this after having sold for years >20K$ camera with such sensors. Funny guys ! If they still do not offer support for Pentax, what can it mean, then ? Pentax not having money, or... Something else ?

05-27-2019, 08:06 AM - 2 Likes	#50
mazwick Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 30	I guess pentax is facing many design decisions, which have not only consequences on a body, but on lenses as well. One of it is of course full 6x45 format, but also, IBIS yes or no, which AF technology should be integrated in the lenses, electronic shutter technology and so on. And all are interdependent! I am fine for the moment, as my 645Z got its shutter replaced at 100,300 frames and it is good enough for the next two-three years, otherwise I would have to decided what to do...

05-27-2019, 09:29 AM - 1 Like	#51
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Originally posted by SylvainB If they just revamp film era zooms, then no coverage problem : they will be naturally DFA. I have no idea if they were supposed to be completely new / from scratch... I had never thought about it under this angle. they could be also HD FA, like latest HD FA 35/2. ---------- Post added 05-27-19 at 07:10 AM ---------- Disclaimer : I don't defend CaptureOne, I don't use it, and I have no PhaseOne camera... They change that position of "no support for medium format competitors" just after annoncing that they were exiting the 33x44mm sensor market, saying that it was not real medium format. All this after having sold for years >20K$ camera with such sensors. Funny guys ! If they still do not offer support for Pentax, what can it mean, then ? Pentax not having money, or... Something else ? it could be that Pentax did them so much damage introducing 10 K model that they still have some bad vibe from that. Well after Ricoh goes for FF 645 too, let’s see what happens then :’D

05-29-2019, 05:34 PM	#52
Gyroscope Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 166	I would like to see Pentax continue development of the 645 line even if for no other reason than with a new body might come more modern lenses. I can't conceive of ever needing a bigger or better sensor than the one that is in the 645Z and it has all the features I want for landscape photography (with the exception of bulb timer) so I will be sticking with it regardless of whether Pentax brings out new 645 stuff. In time when used bodies become cheap enough I will buy a second body for backup and get rid of my K1. I have the 28-45-, 55 & 90 and only wish they would produce a 23mm like Fuji has. I am not interested in all the old film era lenses these need to be fully converted to the modern style lenses starting with the 2 standard zooms otherwise I am afraid they will not be able to keep market share against Fuji.

05-30-2019, 06:03 AM - 1 Like	#53
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	I had the 28-45 and replaced it with the new DFA 35mm and although it’s a remake of the old FA 35, it’s as good if not better than the 28-45 because it has no field curvature like the zoom does, plus it’s very sharp. I did some damage to one of my fingers on my right hand so needed to lighten the camera weight so the zoom had to go. I’m very pleased with the new prime. If they did the same with the 45-85 and 80-160 as they did the 35 then they should be great. I’m happy for them to keep the aperture ring so that they can be used on other cameras like the K-1 and Canon DSLR as a backup body.

05-30-2019, 06:15 PM	#54
Gyroscope Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 166	Originally posted by 2351HD I had the 28-45 and replaced it with the new DFA 35mm and although it’s a remake of the old FA 35, it’s as good if not better than the 28-45 because it has no field curvature like the zoom does, plus it’s very sharp. I did some damage to one of my fingers on my right hand so needed to lighten the camera weight so the zoom had to go. I’m very pleased with the new prime. If they did the same with the 45-85 and 80-160 as they did the 35 then they should be great. I’m happy for them to keep the aperture ring so that they can be used on other cameras like the K-1 and Canon DSLR as a backup body. Yes I would also like to add that lens to my kit one day - it is much lighter as you say. The 28-45 is a monster but it covers 90% of the focal range I need in landscape photography so I am stuck with it I guess. A 35mm for travel would be good though. Upgrading the FA lenses to DFA lenses like the 35 may well be a lower cost option for Pentax but I would rather see them do fully electronic 100% modern AW lenses. How does the autofocus of the DFA 35 differ from the FA35? I don't use autofocus when shooting landscapes in live view but something about the old AF system changes the way live view operates I think. I had a 75mm for a short time and I found that the AF point in live view (which I zoom in on to manually focus) can't be moved around the screen and was stuck in the centre unless it was in AF mode and then I couldn't move the focus ring to manually focus? Something annoyed me about that lens whatever it was.

05-31-2019, 01:56 AM	#55
2351HD Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Brisbane, Australia Photos: Albums Posts: 750	I will test the AF later and report back but I don’t have any issue. The main problem with the 3 new lenses is they still have a manual aperture lever, so they still are sitting in the past there.

05-31-2019, 02:56 PM - 2 Likes	#56
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,622	To the OP, I'll probably eat my words one of these days, but, I remain thrilled at the performance of my 645Z. I cannot imagine a feature or technical spec that is limiting my photography at this point in time. If need be, I could be happy for several more years shooting the same body.

05-31-2019, 04:48 PM - 2 Likes	#57
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by mikeSF To the OP, I'll probably eat my words one of these days, but, I remain thrilled at the performance of my 645Z. I cannot imagine a feature or technical spec that is limiting my photography at this point in time. If need be, I could be happy for several more years shooting the same body. And everyone should take a deep breath and think about what Mike has said. Preferably after taking a good look at his photographs. Maybe his is not the artistic direction for you, but you can't look at his images and suggest that they aren't excellent in their own milieu. The Z isn't limiting me either. Rather the reverse!

05-31-2019, 11:06 PM - 1 Like	#58
whwang Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 84	To me, the real problem of 645z is the size of the camera. That size was already the largest among all old 645 film bodies (judged by the flange-back distances), and is inappropriately big for a 44mmx33mm sensor. Because of the unnecessarily large flange-back distance, it's hard to make a good ultra-wide lens or an excellent wide lens, like those on the Fuji. This large camera body only makes (some) sense for a true 645 sensor. I really love my 645z, but I am very disappointed by the choices of wide/ultra-wide lenses on it, especially after comparing pictures taken with Pentax 25mm and Fuji 23mm side-by-side. I hope the next Pentax 645 camera (if there is one) can solve this.

06-01-2019, 06:49 AM - 2 Likes	#59
kaseki Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,138	Originally posted by whwang To me, the real problem of 645z is the size of the camera. That size was already the largest among all old 645 film bodies (judged by the flange-back distances), and is inappropriately big for a 44mmx33mm sensor. Because of the unnecessarily large flange-back distance, it's hard to make a good ultra-wide lens or an excellent wide lens, like those on the Fuji. This large camera body only makes (some) sense for a true 645 sensor. I really love my 645z, but I am very disappointed by the choices of wide/ultra-wide lenses on it, especially after comparing pictures taken with Pentax 25mm and Fuji 23mm side-by-side. I hope the next Pentax 645 camera (if there is one) can solve this. My perspective: Given the modern ability to stitch together images in post processing -- images potentially taken with medium-angle lenses that can always beat ultra-wide-angle lenses in lower non-uniformity, aberrations, and distortions -- ultra-wide lenses' role would seem to be more limited than before the age of massive processing power on one's desk. Ultra-wide angle might now only be necessary for certain dynamic scenes that wouldn't be normally taken with long telephoto lenses -- perhaps billowing sails seen from the sailboat's deck, huge flocks of flamingos taking flight, etc. My perspective should not be taken to infer that as a hobbyist, I would not enjoy a lens with an unusual quality; I do have an Arsenal fish-eye for my 645s, for example. Even more "fisheye" field width could be of interest (at used lens prices). But where does the desired scene boundary stop? Do I need 645 resolution when one of the Ricoh devices could provide an extreme image width for a single shot? Some very nice stitched panoramic examples may be seen in Glenn Randall's book, The Art, Science, and Craft of Great Landscape Photography.

06-01-2019, 08:22 AM	#60
mikeSF Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: East Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,622	Originally posted by texandrews And everyone should take a deep breath and think about what Mike has said. Preferably after taking a good look at his photographs. Maybe his is not the artistic direction for you, but you can't look at his images and suggest that they aren't excellent in their own milieu. The Z isn't limiting me either. Rather the reverse! super nice of you, thx!