Come on Pentax where’s next 645 !?

rfkiii · 09-14-2019, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by bull drinkwater

for my $0.02 , the 645Z looks as about as good as it gets. BUT I can think of a few things it needs.
1 up the sensor to 75 mp.
2 add vertical and horizontal sweep panorama.
3 add 5 or 7 image adjustable spread HDR.
Finish it off by addressing and correcting every bug discovered since it's introduction. call it the 645Z 2 XL

#1 won't happen if Pentax sticks with CMOS. Sony Semiconductor is only making 44x33 sensors with 100 MPs.

MilamBardo · 10-08-2019, 06:03 AM

Is it a problem for handheld that the 645z doesn't have in body stabilization?

texandrews · 10-08-2019, 09:52 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by MilamBardo

Is it a problem for handheld that the 645z doesn't have in body stabilization?

What do you mean by "problem". Please remember that people were shooting medium format before there was any such thing as image stabilization.

Because the 645Z is a beefy and larger camera, I find it easier to hold steady---I've always felt that about cameras going back decades. YMMV.

But also, medium format isn't really "action photography" gear unless you're doing fashion with strobes. And then of course you're freezing the action with the help of the flash. Otherwise, it's much more of a slower, tripod mounted sort of thing. That said, I have no fear using my 645Z handheld.

Would I like to have IBIS and would it help me with certain shots? Of course, and I'd love to see it in the camera (also because it is a doorway to other tech, like composition shift and PS). But not having it certainly didn't give me any cause for concern when I bought mine in 2014, and I was already using a camera with IBIS.

MilamBardo · 10-08-2019, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by texandrews

What do you mean by "problem". Please remember that people were shooting medium format before there was any such thing as image stabilization.

.

I was looking at buying one of the old medium format cameras, but the complaint from everyone was you cant shoot handheld. I presumed the 645z would have IS but it doesn't, which surprised me. I've been considering getting a used 645z, but the lack of IS is putting me off, and is pushing me more to the k1, as I am not the type to take a tripod everywhere.

**Alex645** · 10-08-2019, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by MilamBardo

I was looking at buying one of the old medium format cameras, but the complaint from everyone was you cant shoot handheld. I presumed the 645z would have IS but it doesn't, which surprised me. I've been considering getting a used 645z, but the lack of IS is putting me off, and is pushing me more to the k1, as I am not the type to take a tripod everywhere.

You can shoot handheld.
I've been shooting the 645 and then the 645N handheld all day long since the late 80's. Yes, the 645Z is about 7% heavier than the 645N, but what I also only use primes, which reduces the overall weight vs. zooms. Is the K1 or any FF lighter? Yes. Is the KP or most APS-C DSLR lighter than the K1? Yes. But I consider the Pentax 645 series the lightest medium format DSLR available and it is not so heavy that I won't handhold it for hours while shooting. That heft also helps stability at lower shutter speeds.

MilamBardo · 10-08-2019, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Alex645

You can shoot handheld.
.

I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness? (Nice images by the way. Your shot of the sleeping boy is great)

EDIT: Ah okay, I've just reread - you are purely a film shooter, so no image stabilization in those cameras anyway.

**Alex645** · 10-08-2019, 06:20 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by MilamBardo

I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness? (Nice images by the way. Your shot of the sleeping boy is great)

EDIT: Ah okay, I've just reread - you are purely a film shooter, so no image stabilization in those cameras anyway.

With 645, I only shoot film, but I do shoot digital with and without stabilization. I rarely miss a shot because I avoid shooting with slow shutter speeds unless I'm using a tripod.

The key handheld without stabilization is to avoid shooting below the focal length as a fraction of a second; i.e. 75mm lens while shooting a static subject at 1/75" or faster; 35mm at 1/35" or faster; 200mm at 1/200" or faster. The 645 has significant mirror slap induced blur, so I really try to maintain more like 1/250" as a minimum shutter speed handheld. If I'm not pixel or grain peeping, I can get away with slower shutter speeds, but the slower it is the more problematic with blur.

Most of the shots you're seeing in my gallery were shot handheld with 100 ISO for the color and 400 ISO for the B&W. Holding the camera correctly (left palm under the lens), bracing my left arm to my torso, exhaling on the shot, using continuous drive for multiple shots, and using standard to wide primes all contribute to maintaining sharpness and avoiding blur.

And regardless of film or digital, I don't care about my hit vs. miss ratio; I'm not worried about the duds as long as I get the one keeper.

SylvainB · 10-09-2019, 12:47 AM

You can shoot handheld with the 645Z, just be careful with your shutter speed, and know your limits (do you have shaky hands or not ?).
It is very easy to know if your picture is OK or not on the rear screen with 100% zoom in. You will see immediately if you have missed or not.

johnha · 10-09-2019, 01:04 AM

With correct technique you can easily shoot the 645D (and I presume the Z) at the reciprocal of the shutter speed with sensible lenses. However, the lenses are f/2.8 or slower, shooting in low light (1/30th f/2.8 ISO 100 etc) or indoors without flash will be more challenging (the Z's high ISO capability may help here).

As an MF film shooter, I have no issues shooting my P6x7 handheld at 1/30th if required with suitable lenses (probably not the zooms or longer primes).

If you're using IBIS regularly, your hand holding technique may need more care as camera shake may be a forgotten problem - it catches me out sometimes when shooting film - 1/8th at f/1.4 no problem... Oops. All this technology tends to make us lazy and reliant on it to a greater or lesser extent.

agukha · 10-09-2019, 04:49 AM

I'm so used to the stabilization of Pentax cameras since so many years... that I saw with a 645Z the photo were easily blurred and that I had to re-learn to hold steady, then it is ok to take handheld photo with it.
You just have to be more carefull.

MilamBardo · 10-09-2019, 08:25 AM

Thanks for all the replies. Looks like I just need to be more careful if shooting medium format.

Foamberg · 10-21-2019, 11:16 AM

fact is: pentax 645 has a perfect opportunity - recent high megapixel cameras (sony a7riv, panasonic sr1, fuji hfx100, hasselblad x1dii etc...!) have a terrible pixel pitch - large sensors with small pixel!!! the result is a terrible diffraction, really bad for landscape and architectural photography!!! pentax should use a fullframe mf sensor, not more than 50mp but with large pixels! a lot of people are waiting for such a camera...! ;-)

richandfleur · 10-21-2019, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by MilamBardo

I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness?

Remember stabilisation helps in certain circumstances only, where your movement could happen and negatively impact during the image capture.

Once your shutter speed is above a certain point, the actual shot is taken so fast it doesn’t matter if the camera moves a bit.

Without SR you’re vulnerable in those particular situations, so you need to take alternative steps to stabilise yourself, like increase the shutter speed (if creatively your shot allows for that), or lean or something, or use a tripod a bit more than normal, to r use flash to get more light in and allow for faster shutter speeds etc.

Leumas · 10-21-2019, 02:22 PM

Am I the only one that is waiting for a digital 6x7? haha

Honesty I find the digital cropped 645 is just not that much of a step up in size from FF. Full-size 645 is barely medium format IMO. Bring on the digital 6x7 pentax!!!! I don't care if its 50 megapixels to save cost.

Not knocking 645d/z but I just find it hard to get excited for compared to 6x7 (Though I do have a CCD fetish and would pick up a cheap 645d just for that)

richandfleur · 10-21-2019, 02:43 PM - **1 Like**

Problem is always going to be that Pentax doesn't make sensors, so they have to purchase from someone else. If Pentax wants something very unique/against the grain, then they'll have to pay more to develop it.

Pentax has always offered great image quality at a price that's very competitive, but if they venture too far away then the price will have to go up considerably.

There really should have been a 645 upgrade by now.
Add to the mix that MF is now available cheaply as a mirrorless option, and there are more MF new comers also, so it's now quite a competitive market.

10-08-2019, 06:03 AM	#77
MilamBardo Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 44	Image stabilization Is it a problem for handheld that the 645z doesn't have in body stabilization?

10-08-2019, 03:37 PM	#81
MilamBardo Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 44	Originally posted by Alex645 You can shoot handheld. . I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness? (Nice images by the way. Your shot of the sleeping boy is great) EDIT: Ah okay, I've just reread - you are purely a film shooter, so no image stabilization in those cameras anyway. Last edited by MilamBardo; 10-08-2019 at 03:48 PM.

10-09-2019, 01:04 AM	#84
johnha Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Lancashire, UK Photos: Albums Posts: 1,155	With correct technique you can easily shoot the 645D (and I presume the Z) at the reciprocal of the shutter speed with sensible lenses. However, the lenses are f/2.8 or slower, shooting in low light (1/30th f/2.8 ISO 100 etc) or indoors without flash will be more challenging (the Z's high ISO capability may help here). As an MF film shooter, I have no issues shooting my P6x7 handheld at 1/30th if required with suitable lenses (probably not the zooms or longer primes). If you're using IBIS regularly, your hand holding technique may need more care as camera shake may be a forgotten problem - it catches me out sometimes when shooting film - 1/8th at f/1.4 no problem... Oops. All this technology tends to make us lazy and reliant on it to a greater or lesser extent. Last edited by johnha; 10-09-2019 at 01:13 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Will next tamron 24-70 G2 come as a Pentax FA* lens	Belnan	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	69	11-20-2017 01:30 PM
Nature next day will come	olegp	Post Your Photos!	3	11-29-2014 10:44 PM
The next K-Mount lenses to come out this year... ?	beholder3	Photographic Industry and Professionals	55	01-31-2012 02:21 PM
Travel Come with us Next to Last	slowpez	Post Your Photos!	6	02-26-2011 08:10 AM
Next Next Pentax. Now	MJB DIGITAL	Photographic Technique	16	02-12-2008 07:00 PM

09-14-2019, 04:45 PM	#76
rfkiii Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Texas Posts: 130	Originally posted by bull drinkwater for my $0.02 , the 645Z looks as about as good as it gets. BUT I can think of a few things it needs. 1 up the sensor to 75 mp. 2 add vertical and horizontal sweep panorama. 3 add 5 or 7 image adjustable spread HDR. Finish it off by addressing and correcting every bug discovered since it's introduction. call it the 645Z 2 XL #1 won't happen if Pentax sticks with CMOS. Sony Semiconductor is only making 44x33 sensors with 100 MPs.

10-08-2019, 09:52 AM - 1 Like	#78
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,393	Originally posted by MilamBardo Is it a problem for handheld that the 645z doesn't have in body stabilization? What do you mean by "problem". Please remember that people were shooting medium format before there was any such thing as image stabilization. Because the 645Z is a beefy and larger camera, I find it easier to hold steady---I've always felt that about cameras going back decades. YMMV. But also, medium format isn't really "action photography" gear unless you're doing fashion with strobes. And then of course you're freezing the action with the help of the flash. Otherwise, it's much more of a slower, tripod mounted sort of thing. That said, I have no fear using my 645Z handheld. Would I like to have IBIS and would it help me with certain shots? Of course, and I'd love to see it in the camera (also because it is a doorway to other tech, like composition shift and PS). But not having it certainly didn't give me any cause for concern when I bought mine in 2014, and I was already using a camera with IBIS.

10-08-2019, 10:24 AM	#79
MilamBardo Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 44	Originally posted by texandrews What do you mean by "problem". Please remember that people were shooting medium format before there was any such thing as image stabilization. . I was looking at buying one of the old medium format cameras, but the complaint from everyone was you cant shoot handheld. I presumed the 645z would have IS but it doesn't, which surprised me. I've been considering getting a used 645z, but the lack of IS is putting me off, and is pushing me more to the k1, as I am not the type to take a tripod everywhere.

10-08-2019, 01:50 PM	#80
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Originally posted by MilamBardo I was looking at buying one of the old medium format cameras, but the complaint from everyone was you cant shoot handheld. I presumed the 645z would have IS but it doesn't, which surprised me. I've been considering getting a used 645z, but the lack of IS is putting me off, and is pushing me more to the k1, as I am not the type to take a tripod everywhere. You can shoot handheld. I've been shooting the 645 and then the 645N handheld all day long since the late 80's. Yes, the 645Z is about 7% heavier than the 645N, but what I also only use primes, which reduces the overall weight vs. zooms. Is the K1 or any FF lighter? Yes. Is the KP or most APS-C DSLR lighter than the K1? Yes. But I consider the Pentax 645 series the lightest medium format DSLR available and it is not so heavy that I won't handhold it for hours while shooting. That heft also helps stability at lower shutter speeds.

10-08-2019, 06:20 PM - 1 Like	#82
Alex645 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Kaneohe, HI Photos: Albums Posts: 3,526	Originally posted by MilamBardo I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness? (Nice images by the way. Your shot of the sleeping boy is great) EDIT: Ah okay, I've just reread - you are purely a film shooter, so no image stabilization in those cameras anyway. With 645, I only shoot film, but I do shoot digital with and without stabilization. I rarely miss a shot because I avoid shooting with slow shutter speeds unless I'm using a tripod. The key handheld without stabilization is to avoid shooting below the focal length as a fraction of a second; i.e. 75mm lens while shooting a static subject at 1/75" or faster; 35mm at 1/35" or faster; 200mm at 1/200" or faster. The 645 has significant mirror slap induced blur, so I really try to maintain more like 1/250" as a minimum shutter speed handheld. If I'm not pixel or grain peeping, I can get away with slower shutter speeds, but the slower it is the more problematic with blur. Most of the shots you're seeing in my gallery were shot handheld with 100 ISO for the color and 400 ISO for the B&W. Holding the camera correctly (left palm under the lens), bracing my left arm to my torso, exhaling on the shot, using continuous drive for multiple shots, and using standard to wide primes all contribute to maintaining sharpness and avoiding blur. And regardless of film or digital, I don't care about my hit vs. miss ratio; I'm not worried about the duds as long as I get the one keeper.

10-09-2019, 12:47 AM	#83
SylvainB Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Location: Paris area Posts: 214	You can shoot handheld with the 645Z, just be careful with your shutter speed, and know your limits (do you have shaky hands or not ?). It is very easy to know if your picture is OK or not on the rear screen with 100% zoom in. You will see immediately if you have missed or not.

10-09-2019, 04:49 AM	#85
agukha Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 367	I'm so used to the stabilization of Pentax cameras since so many years... that I saw with a 645Z the photo were easily blurred and that I had to re-learn to hold steady, then it is ok to take handheld photo with it. You just have to be more carefull.

10-09-2019, 08:25 AM	#86
MilamBardo Junior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 44	Thanks for all the replies. Looks like I just need to be more careful if shooting medium format.

10-21-2019, 11:16 AM	#87
Foamberg New Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 18	fact is: pentax 645 has a perfect opportunity - recent high megapixel cameras (sony a7riv, panasonic sr1, fuji hfx100, hasselblad x1dii etc...!) have a terrible pixel pitch - large sensors with small pixel!!! the result is a terrible diffraction, really bad for landscape and architectural photography!!! pentax should use a fullframe mf sensor, not more than 50mp but with large pixels! a lot of people are waiting for such a camera...! ;-)

10-21-2019, 12:40 PM	#88
richandfleur Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand Photos: Albums Posts: 1,788	Originally posted by MilamBardo I'm glad to hear that it is possible. What effect does having no image stabilization have? Do you miss a lot of shots? Loss of sharpness? Remember stabilisation helps in certain circumstances only, where your movement could happen and negatively impact during the image capture. Once your shutter speed is above a certain point, the actual shot is taken so fast it doesn’t matter if the camera moves a bit. Without SR you’re vulnerable in those particular situations, so you need to take alternative steps to stabilise yourself, like increase the shutter speed (if creatively your shot allows for that), or lean or something, or use a tripod a bit more than normal, to r use flash to get more light in and allow for faster shutter speeds etc.

10-21-2019, 02:22 PM	#89
Leumas Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 454	Am I the only one that is waiting for a digital 6x7? haha Honesty I find the digital cropped 645 is just not that much of a step up in size from FF. Full-size 645 is barely medium format IMO. Bring on the digital 6x7 pentax!!!! I don't care if its 50 megapixels to save cost. Not knocking 645d/z but I just find it hard to get excited for compared to 6x7 (Though I do have a CCD fetish and would pick up a cheap 645d just for that)

10-21-2019, 02:43 PM - 1 Like	#90
richandfleur Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand Photos: Albums Posts: 1,788	Problem is always going to be that Pentax doesn't make sensors, so they have to purchase from someone else. If Pentax wants something very unique/against the grain, then they'll have to pay more to develop it. Pentax has always offered great image quality at a price that's very competitive, but if they venture too far away then the price will have to go up considerably. There really should have been a 645 upgrade by now. Add to the mix that MF is now available cheaply as a mirrorless option, and there are more MF new comers also, so it's now quite a competitive market.