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08-23-2019, 11:43 PM   #1
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Pentax 645N, 67ii, long lenses and mirror / shutter shake

Hi all!

I'm considering a 300mm and a 2x teleconverter for my P645N (not the Nii) or for my P67ii. Before I potentially get this I'm curious to know of people here having any experience with this kind of stuff in use. I'm slightly anxious on how much of an issue the mirror shake could be regarding the 645N (I've read its non-existing for a 300mm, but what about 600mm)? For the 67ii Im wondering if the shutter shake will be visible on long lenses even with MLU. If it is an issue for long focal lengths is there a way to deal with that?

I also have a Hasselblad 500CM with a 250mm (a lens I really like). I could get a Mutar 2X for this but Im tempted to sell this kit as I dont use it that much. I usually shot 75mm-150mm with the 645N, and 90mm-200mm with the 67ii, but every now and then I think longer lenses could have been usefull.

Suggestion, toughts and advice from long shooters with these kits is appreciated :-)

Cheers
Peter

08-24-2019, 12:26 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by pkr1979 Quote
I'm considering a 300mm and a 2x teleconverter for my P645N (not the Nii) or for my P67ii. Before I potentially get this I'm curious to know of people here having any experience with this kind of stuff in use. I'm slightly anxious on how much of an issue the mirror shake could be regarding the 645N (I've read its non-existing for a 300mm, but what about 600mm)?
Peter
I can only speak for the 645N. With a lot of magnification, I have NOT seen mirror shake induced blur at 1/250" or faster, and with the 300mm at 1/500"+ you should be fine. With a 2x teleconverter, I would shoot at 1/1000", which means full sun, ISO 400 and probably around f/8 or f/11.
08-24-2019, 12:38 AM - 1 Like   #3
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The Pentax 645N (N II) is very well dampened and shutter shake is really not a problem.

Two images of moving aircraft on the taxiway taken with the (old) 67 300mm F4.0 on the P645N - both at 1/180 sec. and handheld:
Kramme & Zeuthen KZ II


Eurofighter Typhoon


and a commander of the Kravat Regiment in Zagreb taken with the 200mm at 1/60 sec. handheld - not much shuttershake there:


An here is an image taken with the Pentax 6x7 and the 6x7 500 mm F5.6 - 1/500 sec. handheld - maybe not super sharp, but a shot taken on the spur of the moment with the whole rig handheld, and the combo is quite heavy:
08-24-2019, 07:14 AM   #4
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The old 300mm cantilevered off the Pentax 67 body on a tripod can be problematic. The newer and better M* 300mm EDIF has a tripod mount and that can be problematic too at some shutter speeds. But you can either add a second tripod or a monopod to the camera body and that solves the problem.

If you have a real lightweight ( I mean small and weak) tripod, extend it all the way and mount your 67 on it. Use a cable release and say 1/8th of a second shutter speed. Fire the camera and watch how it moves. I'm able to see a lateral movement from the inertia of the shutter.

08-24-2019, 09:24 AM   #5
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Hi - and thanks for getting back to me - all of you :-)

As I understand this, shutter shake is an issue with the 67ii with longer focal lenghts.

If using the 645N with longer focal lenghts like 600mm on a tripod, I would prefer to be able to use shorter (UPDATE: I MEAN SLOWER SHUTTER SPEEDS) shutter speed times then 1/250...

Am I better of keeping the Hasselblad 500cm for shooting with long lenses?

Last edited by pkr1979; 08-24-2019 at 10:25 AM.
08-24-2019, 10:08 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by pkr1979 Quote
...
Am I better of keeping the Hasselblad 500cm for shooting with long lenses?
There is no one answer. It all depends. You can make both systems work. But if you want shutter speeds faster than 1/250th, the leaf shutter of the Zeiss lenses becomes both limiting at 1/500 and inherently less accurate at exposure due to the nature of a leaf shutter.

Last edited by tuco; 08-24-2019 at 10:17 AM.
08-24-2019, 10:21 AM   #7
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Sorry, I meant slower shutter speeds.
08-24-2019, 10:34 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by pkr1979 Quote
If using the 645N with longer focal lenghts like 600mm on a tripod, I would prefer to be able to use shorter shutter speed times then 1/250...

Am I better of keeping the Hasselblad 500cm for shooting with long lenses?
QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
There is no one answer. It all depends. You can make both systems work. But if you want shutter speeds faster than 1/250th, the leaf shutter of the Zeiss lenses becomes both limiting at 1/500 and inherently not accurate at exposure due to the nature of a leaf shutter.
You would prefer to use "short shutter speed times than 1/250"? Short means 1/500 or 1/1000". Then that's fine. Even the 1/250" is on the envelope with an effective 600mm. But if you meant longer shutter speed times than 1/250, such as 1/125" and slower, then it's problematic. If you're not enlarging the image too much, you could have a few per roll that will be fine, but any cropping or 8x10" and bigger is going to lose sharpness in part due to mirror slap/shutter shake.

+1 @tuco. You can make both systems work, but they both have their limitations and advantages.

08-24-2019, 11:12 AM   #9
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Using long lenses on the 67 can be done but it depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. If you want a narrow DOF with the lenses opened up quite a bit, then high shutter speeds can be used and no shutter issues arise. But if you are going to use these lenses for large DOF work and a slow film, you will be forced into the problem shutter speed area ( 1/2 to 1/30 sec.). That can be alleviated by using a 400 speed film to get you to a faster shutter speed. I can't recommend using two tripods with the 600 Takumar (67) as it is a massive pain.
08-24-2019, 12:06 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
You would prefer to use "short shutter speed times than 1/250"? Short means 1/500 or 1/1000". Then that's fine. Even the 1/250" is on the envelope with an effective 600mm. But if you meant longer shutter speed times than 1/250, such as 1/125" and slower, then it's problematic. If you're not enlarging the image too much, you could have a few per roll that will be fine, but any cropping or 8x10" and bigger is going to lose sharpness in part due to mirror slap/shutter shake.

+1 @tuco. You can make both systems work, but they both have their limitations and advantages.
I meant slower. Are you referring to both systems or just the 67ii regarding the shutter speed and loss of sharpness?

---------- Post added 08-24-19 at 01:08 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by desertscape Quote
Using long lenses on the 67 can be done but it depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. If you want a narrow DOF with the lenses opened up quite a bit, then high shutter speeds can be used and no shutter issues arise. But if you are going to use these lenses for large DOF work and a slow film, you will be forced into the problem shutter speed area ( 1/2 to 1/30 sec.). That can be alleviated by using a 400 speed film to get you to a faster shutter speed. I can't recommend using two tripods with the 600 Takumar (67) as it is a massive pain.
Im not dragging around 2 tripods... nor am I that keen to be limited to 400ISO or faster.

Last edited by pkr1979; 08-24-2019 at 12:12 PM.
08-24-2019, 12:40 PM - 1 Like   #11
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Be aware that not all long lenses for the 67 are affected equally in the problem shutter speed area. The 400 Takumar does fairly well, while the 300 and 600 Takumars are awful.
08-24-2019, 02:48 PM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by pkr1979 Quote
IAre you referring to both systems or just the 67ii regarding the shutter speed and loss of sharpness?[COLOR="Silver"]
As stated in post #2, I am only referring to the 645N, not the 67ii. But the comments of others makes sense in that a 67 will have more shutter shock/mirror slap than a 645, if for no other reason, it's bigger.
08-25-2019, 03:40 PM - 1 Like   #13
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Hello !

I used a 67 M*300 mm f/4 on my 645N with the 1.4X 67 converter without any problems. Now I acquired a 645 FA 400 mm f/5.6 that is used on a 645Z digital camera without any problem either. Both lenses have a tripod support amidship and are well balanced. The secret : I use a super heavy Manfrotto 128 tripod (12 pounds). The more inertia your support has guarantees sharp pictures.
08-26-2019, 11:31 AM   #14
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What hasn't been mentioned but is worth considering is Ilford D3200. It has a true speed of possibly 1250 and in my experience loses no significant shadow detail at 1600 so you now have a film that is two stops better than a 400 speed film with proportional shutter speed improvement for light conditions that are less than bright sunlight. In terms of grain a 645 neg will not, in my experience, start to show this at all at 8x10. If you envisage enlargements greater than this then 11x14 may be fine as well. You'd have to try it and see

asahijock
08-26-2019, 12:05 PM   #15
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I suppose I could swap the 645N to a Nii... but as of now Im kind of leaning towards keeping the H500CM for tele stuff.
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