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04-12-2020, 07:56 AM   #1
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645n & hss?

I have been using a 645N and AF500FTZ for a few months, and am very limited by the 1/60 sync speed. I have an AF500FTZ flash unit, that is not capable of HSS. Is there any flash unit that will do HSS, and communicate as much to my 645N. I have looked at both the AF360FGZ and AF540FGZ; both do HSS. I cannot determine if either will do HSS on my 645N. Thanks.

04-12-2020, 08:40 AM - 1 Like   #2
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645n & hss?

I don’t believe so. I have the top flash in Pentax’s lineup for the NII (I don’t recall the model designation, but I think it’s the same one you mentioned), and as you say it does not provide it.

But with the N, you have a few lenses with leaf shutters, and these will sync up to 1/500.

I have the 75LS just for that purpose from back when the 645N and NII was my gig camera.

Rick “who admittedly rarely used fill flash, preferring reflector scrims for outdoor portraits” Denney
04-12-2020, 08:41 AM   #3
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I think not. HSS belongs to the P-TTL era, which was introduced along with the digital camera bodies. The Pentax 645N and NII are film cameras with the old style TTL, which measures the light that is reflected from the film during exposure. P-TTL works in a different manner and relies on pre-flashes from the flash units. The Pentax 645N and NII are not P-TTL capable.
04-12-2020, 09:06 AM   #4
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Thank you, LaHo and rdenney. I assumed P-TTL and TTL were two different things. At least I know 'why' the newer flashes won't work. And I'll have a good look at the leaf-shutter lenses. Thanks again.

04-12-2020, 09:15 AM   #5
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on the review page …. Accepts leaf shutter lens for flash synchronization to 1/500s. would imagine with the 500ftz or other flashes

the ZX-L and MZ-S (2001 bodies) have HSS via TTL with appropriate flash (360, 540, etc) but don't believe that's is offered with 645n (1997 body) maybe the manual will state?
04-12-2020, 09:25 AM   #6
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645N manual doesn't mention HSS at all.
04-12-2020, 09:27 AM   #7
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Normal Flash: The Flash fires while the shutter is fully open -> low sync speed
HSS Sync.: The flash fires several times while the shutter is moving (not fully open) over the film area -> higher speeds possible but lower range [m, ft]
It could work if the flash is triggered right in time - but I never testet it.

-Linus-

04-12-2020, 10:36 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bassat Quote
645N manual doesn't mention HSS at all.
prolly not available then and leaf shutter seems to be the option.....
04-12-2020, 02:41 PM   #9
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With the "N" and other such film cameras, daytime fill flash can be achieved using a neutral density filter to make 1/60 or whatever the "X" speed is work in the sunshine. Then it is just a matter of having a powerful enough flash to gain a few EV contrast.

The AF-540FGZ can do both P-TTL on digital cameras, and (it says in fine print) TTL on film cameras. I haven't tested my 540 on my 645N, as I have a lot of 500FTZ flashes.

It seems conceivable that one could set up a flash capable of HSS and trigger it in that mode from the camera pc socket. Significant experimentation would seem to be needed. If not with Pentax flashes, perhaps forced HSS might work with other brand flashes, such as Cactus or Godox. Please note that I don't know if HSS can be forced in this manner from these flashes.

I also don't know if there are flashes designed with deliberate long pulse modes that would work in lieu of HSS.
04-12-2020, 11:45 PM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bassat Quote
I have been using a 645N and AF500FTZ for a few months, and am very limited by the 1/60 sync speed. I cannot determine if either will do HSS on my 645N.
In that era, leaf shutters were the solution for faster flash sync. The only two leaf shutter lenses that I know made for the Pentax 645 were the LS 75mm f/2.8 and the LS 135mm f/4.

Leaf shutters were most commonly needed and used for fill flash on location like at weddings and to a lesser degree, a studio. That was the domain of Hasselblad, Bronica, Mamiya, Rollei, and Contax.

For wedding and studio work, having interchangeable backs were also needed for fast film replacement, and changing different film types. This was not Pentax's niche market, so we should consider ourselves fortunate that they even bothered producing two 645 leaf shutter lenses.
04-13-2020, 01:20 AM - 1 Like   #11
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The 6x7 90/2.8 L/S might also work on the 645 film camera (it does on the D with the Pentax adapter). The 6x7 165/4 L/S appears to function differently though.

With the L/S lenses, the flash must be connected to the sync socket on the lens if using L/S mode. As such, the dedicated contacts aren't available, limiting you to manual or 'plain old' auto flash (sensor on the gun) type flash.
04-13-2020, 01:37 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
In that era, leaf shutters were the solution for faster flash sync. The only two leaf shutter lenses that I know made for the Pentax 645 were the LS 75mm f/2.8 and the LS 135mm f/4.

Leaf shutters were most commonly needed and used for fill flash on location like at weddings and to a lesser degree, a studio. That was the domain of Hasselblad, Bronica, Mamiya, Rollei, and Contax.

For wedding and studio work, having interchangeable backs were also needed for fast film replacement, and changing different film types. This was not Pentax's niche market, so we should consider ourselves fortunate that they even bothered producing two 645 leaf shutter lenses.
I did take a look at the 2 645 LS lenses. They don't seem to be much of a solution for me. My 645N work is primarily static landscape photography. As mentioned, it does not lend itself easily to 'on-the-fly' situations. The film/developing/scanning of 120 film is just too expensive for a lot of trial and error. I was hoping to be able to use my Pentax at family events like parties/cookouts and such. Perhaps not.


I have gear more suited to the desired goals. My 35mm Canon bodies (T2 and Elan 7) work very nicely with Canon xxxEX flash units. My digital gear is all Canon.

I also have gear way less suited to flash work than the 645N: Agfa, Mamiya, and Voigtlander MF folders. All of them have leaf shutters, so can use modern electronic flash on the "X" flash setting at any available shutter speed. The whole PC-sync cable requirement puts a huge damper on flash work with those cameras. It was the technology of the day... 70 years ago.
04-13-2020, 05:39 AM - 1 Like   #13
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645n & hss?

70 years ago? Sheesh.

70 years ago (1950), the standard wedding camera was a Crown Graphic and the flash used flashbulbs. Only a few people had a Heiland (later Honeywell) strobe flash, and not all cameras even had the X sync. The sync cable was a parallel-pin affair.

50 years ago (1970), electronic flash had become common, but it was not automatic except in a very few cases (Honeywell Auto-Strobonar). One focused, read the distance, and set the aperture based on the “guide number”. The standard wedding camera was possibly a Hasselblad with a Honeywell Strobonar or Norman (non-automatic) potato-masher flash. Press cameras were still quite common in that application.

Automatic flashes were just becoming common in the 70’s.

My first wedding rig with an auto flash was a Mamiya C-3 with a Sunpak 611 automatic flash, and that was in the late 70’s. The C-3 was old even then (maybe ten years), but it was reliable and cheap. Pros even then could not often afford ‘blads, and we thought of them as rich amateur cameras. Bronica was a common alternative. Wedding ‘togs liked the square format for a variety of reasons. I didn’t have any trouble changing film without interchangeable backs. I’d show up with two pro-packs of Vericolor Type S and would use it all. Of those 120 exposures, 119-120 would go into the proof book. Of those, I typically never used a shutter speed faster than 1/60 anyway. I owned a Canon F-1 but didn’t use it for weddings simply because clients expected something more professional looking (meaning Uncle Harry didn’t have one).

Nobody used 6x7 except maybe in a press camera like a Koni-Omega.

In about 1980, 645 changed that.

But who could afford ten A-12 backs for a wedding even if they had a Hasselblad? The inserts on the Pentax 645 were much cheaper and did the same thing. I used a 645N and NII at my last film wedding, in 2005, and had no problem with the 1/60 flash sync shutter speed. I had five loaded 220 inserts, and would reload them after the altar returns and before the reception. That’s 300 photos. Portrait photographers that specialized in location work were more concerned about that.

By the way, the first Hasselblad (in the 50’s) had a focal-plane shutter and a 1/25 flash sync speed. That was the 1000f and then the 1600f. They later went to leaf shutters in lenses because the 1600f was too unreliable.

Even in the 90’s, the standard wedding rig was a Mamiya C-330 ProS with a Norman or Sunpak flash, using a separate sensor—often camera-mounted—if automatic, and a PC cable (pros used Paramount cables). Or, like my last rig before the Pentax 645, a handful of Vivitar 283’s. And a belt pack for batteries. The assistant changed film. Only budget photographers used 35mm, even though the 35mm rig was often more expensive.

My first digital wedding was made using a Canon 5D, and that was the first wedding I did using E-TTL flash. I was not an early adopter. I made 1500 exposures and destroyed my budget with editing time.

Even with Canons and P645’s, I still use a remote flash shoe and a bracket to get the flash away from the camera—coiled cords are part of the gig.

But since the 80’s I have done weddings for friends and family and didn’t need to make money.

Rick “TTL flash was uncommon for working pros more than 30 years ago” Denney

Last edited by rdenney; 04-13-2020 at 05:46 AM.
04-13-2020, 06:13 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
70 years ago? Sheesh.

70 years ago (1950), the standard wedding camera was a Crown Graphic and the flash used flashbulbs. Only a few people had a Heiland (later Honeywell) strobe flash, and not all cameras even had the X sync. The sync cable was a parallel-pin affair.

50 years ago (1970), electronic flash had become common, but it was not automatic except in a very few cases (Honeywell Auto-Strobonar). One focused, read the distance, and set the aperture based on the “guide number”. The standard wedding camera was possibly a Hasselblad with a Honeywell Strobonar or Norman (non-automatic) potato-masher flash. Press cameras were still quite common in that application.

Automatic flashes were just becoming common in the 70’s.

My first wedding rig with an auto flash was a Mamiya C-3 with a Sunpak 611 automatic flash, and that was in the late 70’s. The C-3 was old even then (maybe ten years), but it was reliable and cheap. Pros even then could not often afford ‘blads, and we thought of them as rich amateur cameras. Bronica was a common alternative. Wedding ‘togs liked the square format for a variety of reasons. I didn’t have any trouble changing film without interchangeable backs. I’d show up with two pro-packs of Vericolor Type S and would use it all. Of those 120 exposures, 119-120 would go into the proof book. Of those, I typically never used a shutter speed faster than 1/60 anyway. I owned a Canon F-1 but didn’t use it for weddings simply because clients expected something more professional looking (meaning Uncle Harry didn’t have one).

Nobody used 6x7 except maybe in a press camera like a Koni-Omega.

In about 1980, 645 changed that.

But who could afford ten A-12 backs for a wedding even if they had a Hasselblad? The inserts on the Pentax 645 were much cheaper and did the same thing. I used a 645N and NII at my last film wedding, in 2005, and had no problem with the 1/60 flash sync shutter speed. I had five loaded 220 inserts, and would reload them after the altar returns and before the reception. That’s 300 photos. Portrait photographers that specialized in location work were more concerned about that.

By the way, the first Hasselblad (in the 50’s) had a focal-plane shutter and a 1/25 flash sync speed. That was the 1000f and then the 1600f. They later went to leaf shutters in lenses because the 1600f was too unreliable.

Even in the 90’s, the standard wedding rig was a Mamiya C-330 ProS with a Norman or Sunpak flash, using a separate sensor—often camera-mounted—if automatic, and a PC cable (pros used Paramount cables). Or, like my last rig before the Pentax 645, a handful of Vivitar 283’s. And a belt pack for batteries. The assistant changed film. Only budget photographers used 35mm, even though the 35mm rig was often more expensive.

My first digital wedding was made using a Canon 5D, and that was the first wedding I did using E-TTL flash. I was not an early adopter. I made 1500 exposures and destroyed my budget with editing time.

Even with Canons and P645’s, I still use a remote flash shoe and a bracket to get the flash away from the camera—coiled cords are part of the gig.

But since the 80’s I have done weddings for friends and family and didn’t need to make money.

Rick “TTL flash was uncommon for working pros more than 30 years ago” Denney
Very nice recounting, Rick. You have used a lot of gear over the years. I just want to put it out there that I am not old enough to have used my '40s & '50s vintage folders when they were new. I have acquired them in response to my question: "What else uses this weird film?" after I bought my first P645 last year. I am old enough to have been seeing the world through a viewfinder since about 1965. I was old enough to buy my first SLR (Yashica FX-2) in 1976. I have never done any type of photography for money. Why ruin a good walk in the park?
04-13-2020, 07:09 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bassat Quote
Very nice recounting, Rick. You have used a lot of gear over the years. I just want to put it out there that I am not old enough to have used my '40s & '50s vintage folders when they were new. I have acquired them in response to my question: "What else uses this weird film?" after I bought my first P645 last year. I am old enough to have been seeing the world through a viewfinder since about 1965. I was old enough to buy my first SLR (Yashica FX-2) in 1976. I have never done any type of photography for money. Why ruin a good walk in the park?
We could not agree more on your last sentence. I learned that lesson the hard way. But it was one of many things I did to fund my activities while in college and for some years thereafter, even when I had a day job, though getting paid turned me off of photography for many years as a result. The weddings I've done since I refuse to charge for, and so only do them for friends and family who can't afford a pro and would otherwise have only Uncle Harry photos.

But your 40's and 50's folders were amateur cameras--nice ones, to be sure--but still for tourists. I have a Moscow folder from 1958--typical of the breed and a copy of a Super Ikonta or something like that. It's really fun to play with and look at, but cell focusing has its limitations. And I do have a Speed Graphic, but the only press camera I've used that made money was a baby-size Crown Graphic--a Century Graphic--which I used with a Zeiss Jena lens to photograph the Texas Aggie Bonfire. That image sold 10,000 8x10 prints. Notice my story did not include Rolleiflex, even though I have a Rolleiflex MX-Type II (I think) from the early 50's with a Schneider Xenar. I traded a TV for it. That is a very nice camera and the shutter is still snappy and accurate. But that sort of camera for a wedding is a disaster, though many used them. Swing-up backs really did make it hard to change film, especially since the bracket for the flash had to be removed before the back could be opened. The Mamiya TLR solved that problem with a back that hinged on the lower back edge instead of the lower front edge. And the Mamiya had interchangeable lenses, some of which were really excellent for the era and could keep up with the standard Zeiss/Hasselblad lenses of the day.

What that Rolleiflex taught me (and the Yashica 635, and the several Mamiya C-series TLRs) was that cheap medium format trumps expensive 35mm, and the reason 35mm was expensive was because making small mechanical things is harder than making big mechanical things, and making lenses that could support quality 11x enlargements (to a mere 8x10) require cubic dollars compared to lenses that could support a 4x or 5x enlargement to make the same print. And even setting acutance and resolution aside, the larger film simply contained more tonality. My 11x14 and 16x20 prints from that era, made using the (expensive!) Canon F-1 or one of my two Pentax KX's (the first one, both bought new in the 70's) lack the sort of image definition and clarity I started demanding once I got used to larger formats. That led me very early on, while still an architecture student, to large format--a beautiful but ancient Linhof Kardan Color owned by the architecture school. I was hooked on large format and remain so, though scratching that itch now requires overcoming vast inconvenience and I'm lazy. Once I could afford a view camera, I bought a Newton Nue-View, truly a dreadful camera that should have cured me of the disease but didn't, followed by a Calumet CC-400, a Cambo SC that I used for several decades, a Sinar F that I used for another decade, and finally a Sinar P that I now use as long as I don't have to stray far from the car. The image-management capabilities are endless, and the information stored in those negatives vast. I'm still looking forward to a practical and affordable field-capable 4x5 digital back, but I doubt that will ever happen.

What made those old-tech cameras work at an event were powerful automatic flashes. That Vericolor could shoot at 1/60 and f/16 in open shade, and because it was negative film one could overexpose it by a stop or two and still not block up the highlights. But it takes a powerful flash to provide much range at f/16, even though the fill flash can be two stops less exposed than the scene. So, I would set the automatic flash on f/8, but set the lens to f/16, and could shoot outdoors at 1/60 without worry. At f/8, I might have a range of up to 10 feet or so, so I let it do good where it would and didn't worry about it otherwise. For portraits and altar returns, I would use a large reflective scrim (I have one that unfolds to six feet in diameter and is covered on one side with gold and the other side with silver metallic material) to fill shadows when forced to work outdoors in direct sun. Of course, that was in the day when shots were posed and the photographer was expected to manage the photos rather than work invisibly. And nowadays photographers set up powerful strobes on stands around the room margins and use a radio control and TTL to control the light.

But even using P-TTL (or E-TTL with my Canons), I still mount the flash on a bracket and use a remote cord. A battery pack, too. For my Canon (current is an old but still effective 5DII, fresh back from service where they replaced the shutter and the mirror box) I have two 580EXII flashes and four battery packs that can be converted with a plug change to use with my two Pentax P-TTL flashes. I haven't tried to set up flashes on stands around the room--but I don't think that's really any easier than hauling around that Pacemaker Graphic with a Honeywell Strobonar, and it's certainly worse than the Mamiya C-3 or C-33 with a Sunpak 611 potato masher.

Oh, well, enough stories. In 1965, I was looking through the viewfinder of a Kodak Hawkeye Instamatic, which, like the Newton, should have put me off of photography altogether. But it really just made me want more that first good camera--a Yashica Lynx 5000e rangefinder. My first SLR was a Mamiya/Sekor 1000DTL, stolen a few years later. I used the insurance money to buy the first KX, since I had a range of lenses for it, but had already bought the F-1.

Rick "who, just this weekend, found all of the missing old darkroom equipment buried at the back of the attic storeroom" Denney
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