Is there still a market for 645 film gear?

**Pål Jensen** · 04-23-2020, 05:31 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Tjompen1968

I would buy some of your lenses. Just bought the 645z and have bought the 35/3.5 and the 150/2.8 to go with the 55/2.8.

So, yes there is a market for both the camera and the lenses. You don´t happen to have automatic extension tubes?

I'll swing by when the border opens again...

/T

No extension tubes. I have decided to keep the lenses and buy a second hand 645z at a later stage.
I have put the camera in the marketplace.

asahijock · 04-26-2020, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by johnha

Medium format gear prices seem to have bounced back from their low a few years ago. The perceived limitations of P645s (lack of an interchangeable back and flash sync) are now much less significant. Most users aren't shooting full weddings or massively using flash in daylight.

The 645n(ii) are examples of the most accomplished 120 film cameras, with full backward/forward compatibility at a realistic price. The Contax is more expensive as much fewer are available, the Mamiya has all sorts if compatibility issues.

What you have said and the poster above you has said accord with my understanding as well. Nearly all film cameras are rising in price. There would seem to be a revival of interest in film and film cameras and that plus the fact that no-one is making them any more has dictated the rise in price

asahijock

**RICHARD L.** · 04-26-2020, 03:44 PM - **1 Like**

I haven't used my 645N body in a couple of years. I will have to learn all over again how to load 120 film in the holder ... lol! I have a good reserve of Fuji Reala 100 and Kodak Ektar 100 in my freezer but there are only 2 labs in Montreal (150 miles away) that offer expensive processing as of now. They usually process just one day a week and only if the volume is sufficient.

Regards

yucafrita · 04-27-2020, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by asahijock

What you have said and the poster above you has said accord with my understanding as well. Nearly all film cameras are rising in price. There would seem to be a revival of interest in film and film cameras and that plus the fact that no-one is making them any more has dictated the rise in price

asahijock

Last year I was looking on ebay for a mint nos 67II, two were offered for +2000 € by the same seller (collector), too much for me. They're gone now.

I think Ricoh would definitively mark a position if they'd reintroduce a 645 or 67 for film. But I fear they cant because surely the tools are already dumped. and it would be too expensive anyway.

asahijock · 04-27-2020, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by yucafrita

Last year I was looking on ebay for a mint nos 67II, two were offered for +2000 € by the same seller (collector), too much for me. They're gone now.

I think Ricoh would definitively mark a position if they'd reintroduce a 645 or 67 for film. But I fear they cant because surely the tools are already dumped. and it would be too expensive anyway.

I fear that what you have said about Ricoh and the tools is true of all or nearly all of the former film camera makers and this leads me to two conclusions. 1. ,Working cameras will wear out eventually and this inevitable trend will make film cameras steadily more expensive 2. The revival in film may be short-lived and at best plateau only slightly above what it is now in the longer term due to this "Ricoh factor " for want of a better expression

asahijock

**rdenney** · 04-27-2020, 10:37 AM - **2 Likes**

Film will continue, but only as a niche. The industry is learning how to support a niche market, but the mass-production models of old will not be the successful models.

If Ricoh wanted to make that mark, then only manufacture critical high-failure parts (metering chain?), and train a small factory repair staff to repair and refurbish old cameras. Offer them for sale as “certified pre-owned”, with a reasonable (say, six-months or a year) warranty. Pay Eric to (again) do factory authorized repairs, and provide those few critical parts. People would pay extra for the factory imprimatur—I know I would.

Do it for lenses, too. This would also support digital camera sales, and bolster their message of being a long-haul company. That would give them a leg up on Fuji, who has released a wide range of products and then abandoned them a few years later.

I see this as a low-budget, high-return investment that would really separate them from Canon and Nikon, and it fits the niche model. Nikon needs to do the same thing—they are every bit as fragile as is Pentax.

Thinking back on the prices of 67’s and 67 lenses, and scaling that up with inflation, I’m thinking we are talking film bodies that lack much technology but that cost nearly as much as digital bodies, and with lower margins and higher cost of sales. And at expected production levels, they would also never be able to amortize their (re)development costs. It’s romantic but unrealistic. But refurbing old models gives them a way to trade on their rich past at relatively low cost, and without becoming a company of the past.

If they really wanted to make it work, open a C41 lab in key markets. Again, fairly low cost. It would barely break even, but it would be worth it.

Pentax is getting killed by the same secondary market that makes their products such a good deal. This would let them capture some of it.

Rick “but it would take some courage” Denney

**RICHARD L.** · 04-27-2020, 12:23 PM

I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ...

Some 67 lenses still sell for high prices (75 mm f/2.8 AL, M* 300 mm f/4 or M* 400 mm f/4 for example) but these lenses are extremely durable and will last a lifetime if handled well.

Regards,
Richard

**rdenney** · 04-27-2020, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD L.

I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ...

Some 67 lenses still sell for high prices (75 mm f/2.8 AL, M* 300 mm f/4 or M* 400 mm f/4 for example) but these lenses are extremely durable and will last a lifetime if handled well.

Regards,
Richard

I have two 6x7's and a 67, all three of which have been CLA'd by Eric Hendrickson. I don't need three, but they are insurance. Keeping them exercised is a pain in the rear, though.

But, honestly, I'm having so much fun with the 645z and getting such good results with it, I have not been motivated to work much with the 67. If this lock-down lasts into better weather, I might run out of other projects and need to get the cameras out--there's stuff I can do right here.

I was planning a trip to Utah for May, but I think that's an impossibility right now--the hotels where I have reservations are shut down by government order to tourists. I don't think I could persuade anyone I wasn't a tourist on that trip. So, my yard may be my subject.

Rick "who hasn't canceled his leave request yet" Denney

**gofour3** · 04-27-2020, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by RICHARD L.

I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ...

Eric will still works on 6x7/67 bodies but not the 67II. I believe there still is a place in Japan will will fix them, I'd have to dig through old posts to find it.

When I bough my 67II from Japan it had a warranty repair done to it before I bought it, it's been fine since.

Phil.

yucafrita · 04-27-2020, 10:27 PM

I like the idea of Ricoh setting up a repair facility for old film cameras and making parts. At least fo the high-end models. Pretty much what some luxury watch makers do or Mercedes-Benz for their vintage cars. Costly, but worth it.

Jonathan Mac · 04-28-2020, 12:32 AM

It's simple really. If film continues to be used then gear prices will continue to rise (at least the good stuff) and at some point it will become economical to produce new film SLRs again, because the used prices will be as high as a new camera would be sold for.

**kaseki** · 04-28-2020, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by rdenney

So, my yard may be my subject.

Looking forward to your continuing documentation of lichen evolution on your lamppost.

**rdenney** · 04-28-2020, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by kaseki

Looking forward to your continuing documentation of lichen evolution on your lamppost.

The lichens on my lamppost are growing more slowly than the rot. And, furthermore, the bottom of the post has failed and the last time I photographed it for a test I had to prop it back to something like vertical with a rock stomped into the dirt next to the base with a swift kick. At least the wiring to it no longer works.

That's one of many items on my list. Sigh.

Rick "not that we actually need a lamppost there, given that the 'road' it lights is my driveway, and we already know where that is" Denney

Bassat · 04-29-2020, 02:35 AM

Not all film gear is rising wrt price. Besides my 645N, I shoot a lot of Canon. The "best 35mm camera ever made" EOS 1V (not my quote) is going for $800-1,000 on E-Bay. Way too rich for my blood. I have owned mid-grade Canon Elan 7s in the past, and currently have 2 working models. Each was less than $100 on E-Bay. I also have two copies of Canon's last film camera to be released, the EOS T2 (300X). I paid less about $35 for each. All of my Canon film bodies will use any current EF-mount lens, and all for of them use modern ETTL (3 of them ETTL-II) flash. Photographic bargains, all 4 of them.

VSTAR · 05-04-2020, 03:32 PM

If you sell the whole kit then you are basically throwing in the camera body for nothing or next to nothing. Your money is in the lenses. The lenses keep selling even now, if they are in good condition. Either sell the whole thing as a set,the lenses individually,or switch to a 646D or 646Z body if you want to keep using it.

04-26-2020, 03:44 PM - 1 Like	#18
RICHARD L. Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Quebec City, Quebec Posts: 6,579	I haven't used my 645N body in a couple of years. I will have to learn all over again how to load 120 film in the holder ... lol! I have a good reserve of Fuji Reala 100 and Kodak Ektar 100 in my freezer but there are only 2 labs in Montreal (150 miles away) that offer expensive processing as of now. They usually process just one day a week and only if the volume is sufficient. Regards Last edited by RICHARD L.; 04-26-2020 at 03:52 PM.

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04-23-2020, 05:31 AM - 2 Likes	#16
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371 Original Poster	Originally posted by Tjompen1968 I would buy some of your lenses. Just bought the 645z and have bought the 35/3.5 and the 150/2.8 to go with the 55/2.8. So, yes there is a market for both the camera and the lenses. You don´t happen to have automatic extension tubes? I'll swing by when the border opens again... /T No extension tubes. I have decided to keep the lenses and buy a second hand 645z at a later stage. I have put the camera in the marketplace.

04-26-2020, 12:33 PM	#17
asahijock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Northants, England Posts: 167	Originally posted by johnha Medium format gear prices seem to have bounced back from their low a few years ago. The perceived limitations of P645s (lack of an interchangeable back and flash sync) are now much less significant. Most users aren't shooting full weddings or massively using flash in daylight. The 645n(ii) are examples of the most accomplished 120 film cameras, with full backward/forward compatibility at a realistic price. The Contax is more expensive as much fewer are available, the Mamiya has all sorts if compatibility issues. What you have said and the poster above you has said accord with my understanding as well. Nearly all film cameras are rising in price. There would seem to be a revival of interest in film and film cameras and that plus the fact that no-one is making them any more has dictated the rise in price asahijock

04-27-2020, 01:09 AM	#19
yucafrita Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 459	Originally posted by asahijock What you have said and the poster above you has said accord with my understanding as well. Nearly all film cameras are rising in price. There would seem to be a revival of interest in film and film cameras and that plus the fact that no-one is making them any more has dictated the rise in price asahijock Last year I was looking on ebay for a mint nos 67II, two were offered for +2000 € by the same seller (collector), too much for me. They're gone now. I think Ricoh would definitively mark a position if they'd reintroduce a 645 or 67 for film. But I fear they cant because surely the tools are already dumped. and it would be too expensive anyway.

04-27-2020, 09:45 AM	#20
asahijock Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Northants, England Posts: 167	Originally posted by yucafrita Last year I was looking on ebay for a mint nos 67II, two were offered for +2000 € by the same seller (collector), too much for me. They're gone now. I think Ricoh would definitively mark a position if they'd reintroduce a 645 or 67 for film. But I fear they cant because surely the tools are already dumped. and it would be too expensive anyway. I fear that what you have said about Ricoh and the tools is true of all or nearly all of the former film camera makers and this leads me to two conclusions. 1. ,Working cameras will wear out eventually and this inevitable trend will make film cameras steadily more expensive 2. The revival in film may be short-lived and at best plateau only slightly above what it is now in the longer term due to this "Ricoh factor " for want of a better expression asahijock

04-27-2020, 10:37 AM - 2 Likes	#21
rdenney Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: NoVA Posts: 635	Film will continue, but only as a niche. The industry is learning how to support a niche market, but the mass-production models of old will not be the successful models. If Ricoh wanted to make that mark, then only manufacture critical high-failure parts (metering chain?), and train a small factory repair staff to repair and refurbish old cameras. Offer them for sale as “certified pre-owned”, with a reasonable (say, six-months or a year) warranty. Pay Eric to (again) do factory authorized repairs, and provide those few critical parts. People would pay extra for the factory imprimatur—I know I would. Do it for lenses, too. This would also support digital camera sales, and bolster their message of being a long-haul company. That would give them a leg up on Fuji, who has released a wide range of products and then abandoned them a few years later. I see this as a low-budget, high-return investment that would really separate them from Canon and Nikon, and it fits the niche model. Nikon needs to do the same thing—they are every bit as fragile as is Pentax. Thinking back on the prices of 67’s and 67 lenses, and scaling that up with inflation, I’m thinking we are talking film bodies that lack much technology but that cost nearly as much as digital bodies, and with lower margins and higher cost of sales. And at expected production levels, they would also never be able to amortize their (re)development costs. It’s romantic but unrealistic. But refurbing old models gives them a way to trade on their rich past at relatively low cost, and without becoming a company of the past. If they really wanted to make it work, open a C41 lab in key markets. Again, fairly low cost. It would barely break even, but it would be worth it. Pentax is getting killed by the same secondary market that makes their products such a good deal. This would let them capture some of it. Rick “but it would take some courage” Denney

04-27-2020, 12:23 PM	#22
RICHARD L. Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2018 Location: Quebec City, Quebec Posts: 6,579	I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ... Some 67 lenses still sell for high prices (75 mm f/2.8 AL, M* 300 mm f/4 or M* 400 mm f/4 for example) but these lenses are extremely durable and will last a lifetime if handled well. Regards, Richard

04-27-2020, 12:37 PM	#23
rdenney Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: NoVA Posts: 635	Originally posted by RICHARD L. I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ... Some 67 lenses still sell for high prices (75 mm f/2.8 AL, M* 300 mm f/4 or M* 400 mm f/4 for example) but these lenses are extremely durable and will last a lifetime if handled well. Regards, Richard I have two 6x7's and a 67, all three of which have been CLA'd by Eric Hendrickson. I don't need three, but they are insurance. Keeping them exercised is a pain in the rear, though. But, honestly, I'm having so much fun with the 645z and getting such good results with it, I have not been motivated to work much with the 67. If this lock-down lasts into better weather, I might run out of other projects and need to get the cameras out--there's stuff I can do right here. I was planning a trip to Utah for May, but I think that's an impossibility right now--the hotels where I have reservations are shut down by government order to tourists. I don't think I could persuade anyone I wasn't a tourist on that trip. So, my yard may be my subject. Rick "who hasn't canceled his leave request yet" Denney

04-27-2020, 01:33 PM	#24
gofour3 Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 8,091	Originally posted by RICHARD L. I'm lucky my Pentax 67 II became defective right after I bought it (electro-magnet trouble, film wouldn't wind and shutter wouldn't fire). It was repaired under warranty and never developed any other problem after that. If that happened today, I wonder if anybody could bring it back to life ... Eric will still works on 6x7/67 bodies but not the 67II. I believe there still is a place in Japan will will fix them, I'd have to dig through old posts to find it. When I bough my 67II from Japan it had a warranty repair done to it before I bought it, it's been fine since. Phil.

04-27-2020, 10:27 PM	#25
yucafrita Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 459	I like the idea of Ricoh setting up a repair facility for old film cameras and making parts. At least fo the high-end models. Pretty much what some luxury watch makers do or Mercedes-Benz for their vintage cars. Costly, but worth it.

04-28-2020, 12:32 AM	#26
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,897	It's simple really. If film continues to be used then gear prices will continue to rise (at least the good stuff) and at some point it will become economical to produce new film SLRs again, because the used prices will be as high as a new camera would be sold for.

04-28-2020, 02:05 PM	#27
kaseki Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,138	Originally posted by rdenney So, my yard may be my subject. Looking forward to your continuing documentation of lichen evolution on your lamppost.

04-28-2020, 02:14 PM	#28
rdenney Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: NoVA Posts: 635	Originally posted by kaseki Looking forward to your continuing documentation of lichen evolution on your lamppost. The lichens on my lamppost are growing more slowly than the rot. And, furthermore, the bottom of the post has failed and the last time I photographed it for a test I had to prop it back to something like vertical with a rock stomped into the dirt next to the base with a swift kick. At least the wiring to it no longer works. That's one of many items on my list. Sigh. Rick "not that we actually need a lamppost there, given that the 'road' it lights is my driveway, and we already know where that is" Denney

04-29-2020, 02:35 AM	#29
Bassat Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Osceola, IN Posts: 63	Not all film gear is rising wrt price. Besides my 645N, I shoot a lot of Canon. The "best 35mm camera ever made" EOS 1V (not my quote) is going for $800-1,000 on E-Bay. Way too rich for my blood. I have owned mid-grade Canon Elan 7s in the past, and currently have 2 working models. Each was less than $100 on E-Bay. I also have two copies of Canon's last film camera to be released, the EOS T2 (300X). I paid less about $35 for each. All of my Canon film bodies will use any current EF-mount lens, and all for of them use modern ETTL (3 of them ETTL-II) flash. Photographic bargains, all 4 of them.

05-04-2020, 03:32 PM	#30
VSTAR Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Toronto Posts: 390	If you sell the whole kit then you are basically throwing in the camera body for nothing or next to nothing. Your money is in the lenses. The lenses keep selling even now, if they are in good condition. Either sell the whole thing as a set,the lenses individually,or switch to a 646D or 646Z body if you want to keep using it.