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05-14-2020, 03:57 AM - 1 Like   #31
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Hi,

Exactly.

I was looking at the 50R when it was on sale. $3500. Plus they had the pancake lens also on sale for $500. I even went to my local store and tried it on for size. Except, the rangefinder design isn't my cup of tea. The 50S didn't go on sale, but decent used ones can be had for the same price. The pancake lens wouldn't do for me, either. The 45-100 would do to begin with. But, that has a price tag of $2300.

I think I could buy a copy of every P645 FA lens used for $2300.

In the end, I will wait until the GFX 100 can be had used for $5000 and then mostly use my P645 lenses on it. That'll be a long wait, methinks.

And, who knows what will be available by the time that comes to pass? In the meantime, I will have my 645D kit to happily keep me company.

Stan

05-14-2020, 04:33 AM - 2 Likes   #32
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If you're already using Pentax APS-C or K-1 gear, a lot of the accessories are fully compatible with the D/Z (batteries, chargers, flashguns, remote releases etc). These alone will also save you $$$ - as will the 2nd tripod socket on the side (no expensive L bracket needed here). I used P6x7 lenses on mine at first (no issues) because I happened to have them and the adapter (bought in case I got a chance to rent a Z) - when I found a D at a reasonable price it was a no brainer. Apart from a wide-angle, I could happily live with shooting the 67 glass - apart from not having AF they work seamlessly on the Pentax adapter. My old AF240FT flashgun (from the SFX days) still provides rear curtain sync and an AF spotbeam on the D even though it only works as a manual flash (full or quarter power). The O-GPS1 for my K-5 works perfectly allowing me to geotag images if I want, my IR remote control from my ancient Pentax cameras also works.

Legacy gear for the D/Z goes far beyond 'just' the 645 & 6x7 lenses and 645 accessories - a fair amount of other gear also helps reduce the 'system' cost.
05-14-2020, 08:53 AM - 2 Likes   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote

Legacy gear for the D/Z goes far beyond 'just' the 645 & 6x7 lenses and 645 accessories - a fair amount of other gear also helps reduce the 'system' cost.
Glad to see people are joining this bandwagon! Pentax 645 is the best system solution---the most lenses, adapters, accessories and it's upward and downward compatible (downward in that it can be used on K mount cameras). All the flashes are compatible, and so any triggers you might get for that, plus cabling if you do it that way.


I've seen soooooo many people tout Canon and Nikon as the best "system" solutions, yet those same people can never seem to see that that's what we have over here at Pentax---but not just for APSC or FF----those plus 645 and for the film cameras as well, up to 6x7 and back to classics from the '60's.

And what wa2kqy (Stan) said is also true! Pentax is the Rodney Dangerfield brand....
05-14-2020, 12:19 PM - 3 Likes   #34
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For 24x36, I still use Canon, but I was invested into the Canon system long before Pentax had a reasonable solution. The Canon 10D was really much better than the ist*D, and that was my first DSLR. Then came the 5D, which blew away the market for some years. Pentaxians waited a looooong time for a 24x36 solution.

Now, I'm used to the Canons, and they are second-nature for me. Plus, I have a nice range of lenses. But I also like the 645z and I actually did look into a K-1 and the critical lenses when the shutter failed on my 5DII. Just too expensive to start a new system--so I sent the Canon body to Mr. Canon for a new shutter (and they also replaced the mirror box)--at a very reasonable cost of about $400. The aftermarket serves Canon first, Nikon second, and Pentax further down the list, for things like radio slaves and so on. But most people don't need those items--I've managed without them even doing occasional pro work of various types.

Pentax has built great cameras, but so have the others.

When we mix medium format into the equation, Canon and Nikon eliminate themselves from the competition. Even the 50MP Canon can't match the image aesthetics of a 645Z. And the 645 lenses really are excellent--the worst of them are merely good. With Canon, not many lenses get pro consideration except for the expensive L-series lenses. Pentax just didn't make any lenses for 645 that weren't up to professional standards.

But I have to say that I don't think much of Fuji as a long-term investment for professional use. Perhaps the digital world has cured us of the notion of long-term anything. But I used my 5D as my primary camera for nearly a dozen years before adding a (used) 5DII to it, long after the 5DII was replaced by the III and then the IV. And I think I've barely gotten started with the 645Z and I've owned it for two years now. So, I look at long-term commitment from companies. Fuji has made some great medium-format film cameras. But by the time I got interested in them, they had already abandoned them. An example is the GX680, which they retired after 20 years of production in three versions. The lenses do not fit on other Fuji cameras, and are orphaned (I'm not tolerating the use of adapters that include electronics for commercial use--another point of failure). Pentax, on the other hand, introduced the 645 in the very early 80's, and in essence it is still in production. They made the 6x7/67 for 40-odd years in several versions, all of which used the same lenses without issue.

Fuji has, of course, made whole series of fixed-lens medium-format rangefinder cameras, and even some really nice folders. How long were these on the market? The longest were a year or two longer than two decades, but many were discontinued long before that. Not that it matters--with fixed lenses, they had no system capabilities or compatibility issues anyway. Neat cameras, were the Texas Leicas, but not versatile for professional use or particularly long-lived. They were also among the first to abandon large format, despite that their lenses were excellent.

I see Fuji as a company that does not commit to a systems approach, nor do they support their systems for the long haul. I'd hate to invest in a Fuji mirrorless medium-format digital camera and several lenses, only to have it all become obsoleted after too short a time (recognizing how long that is for me). They seem only be interested in what seem to me like current market fads. It seems like playing with things, rather than supporting customers for life. This sets them apart from other major Japanese manufacturers, actually.

Rick "older than many and thus with a longer view" Denney

05-14-2020, 01:46 PM - 1 Like   #35
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Bruce, get yourself a Z. You will love the live view in studio especially for product shots. I waited round about two years and then I found one for 2100 EUR from another photog. Just wait and the right one will come. The ccd color thing is not really important. For this you have LR. 😉
05-14-2020, 04:13 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
For 24x36, I still use Canon, but I was invested into the Canon system long before Pentax had a reasonable solution. The Canon 10D was really much better than the ist*D, and that was my first DSLR. Then came the 5D, which blew away the market for some years. Pentaxians waited a looooong time for a 24x36 solution.

Now, I'm used to the Canons, and they are second-nature for me. Plus, I have a nice range of lenses. But I also like the 645z and I actually did look into a K-1 and the critical lenses when the shutter failed on my 5DII. Just too expensive to start a new system--so I sent the Canon body to Mr. Canon for a new shutter (and they also replaced the mirror box)--at a very reasonable cost of about $400. The aftermarket serves Canon first, Nikon second, and Pentax further down the list, for things like radio slaves and so on. But most people don't need those items--I've managed without them even doing occasional pro work of various types.

Pentax has built great cameras, but so have the others.

When we mix medium format into the equation, Canon and Nikon eliminate themselves from the competition. Even the 50MP Canon can't match the image aesthetics of a 645Z. And the 645 lenses really are excellent--the worst of them are merely good. With Canon, not many lenses get pro consideration except for the expensive L-series lenses. Pentax just didn't make any lenses for 645 that weren't up to professional standards.

But I have to say that I don't think much of Fuji as a long-term investment for professional use. Perhaps the digital world has cured us of the notion of long-term anything. But I used my 5D as my primary camera for nearly a dozen years before adding a (used) 5DII to it, long after the 5DII was replaced by the III and then the IV. And I think I've barely gotten started with the 645Z and I've owned it for two years now. So, I look at long-term commitment from companies. Fuji has made some great medium-format film cameras. But by the time I got interested in them, they had already abandoned them. An example is the GX680, which they retired after 20 years of production in three versions. The lenses do not fit on other Fuji cameras, and are orphaned (I'm not tolerating the use of adapters that include electronics for commercial use--another point of failure). Pentax, on the other hand, introduced the 645 in the very early 80's, and in essence it is still in production. They made the 6x7/67 for 40-odd years in several versions, all of which used the same lenses without issue.

Fuji has, of course, made whole series of fixed-lens medium-format rangefinder cameras, and even some really nice folders. How long were these on the market? The longest were a year or two longer than two decades, but many were discontinued long before that. Not that it matters--with fixed lenses, they had no system capabilities or compatibility issues anyway. Neat cameras, were the Texas Leicas, but not versatile for professional use or particularly long-lived. They were also among the first to abandon large format, despite that their lenses were excellent.

I see Fuji as a company that does not commit to a systems approach, nor do they support their systems for the long haul. I'd hate to invest in a Fuji mirrorless medium-format digital camera and several lenses, only to have it all become obsoleted after too short a time (recognizing how long that is for me). They seem only be interested in what seem to me like current market fads. It seems like playing with things, rather than supporting customers for life. This sets them apart from other major Japanese manufacturers, actually.

Rick "older than many and thus with a longer view" Denney
Rick, that is a really interesting perspective on Fuji----but I think compared to Pentax you may have hit the bullseye.

Tex "former Texas Leica owner and huge fan"
05-14-2020, 04:29 PM   #37
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Hi,

So *that* is what a Texas Leica is. :P I have been around photography since 1973, and I have heard that term now and again. But, never really knew exactly what it meant. Now I do! Of course I have seen those, just never made the connection. See what the Pentax system can teach us!

As far as systems go. My Nikon stuff spanning from the F2 era to the Df has all sorts of bases covered. But, it isn't medium format. I have doubts about all but a few of my Nikkors working well above 30 MP. Yes, they have ones that do, but they aren't in any of my bags for the most part.

My Nikon stuff based around the Df will do me just fine for longevity. And so will the Pentax 645 stuff. Different tools for different uses. Very complementary, actually. I am just needing to wait a few weeks longer to get started on the lighthouse work. When I do, I will take the shots with three cameras. The 645D, the Df and my old Kodak DCS 760c based on a Nikon F5. Old school. I bought that new in 2003 and have 80k plus shots on it. A really long time for a digital camera.

Stan

05-14-2020, 05:00 PM   #38
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Stan, you’re an old-line ham—you know what it is to keep old stuff effectively useful.

Rick “KR9D” Denney
05-14-2020, 05:07 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Glad to see people are joining this bandwagon! Pentax 645 is the best system solution---the most lenses, adapters, accessories and it's upward and downward compatible (downward in that it can be used on K mount cameras). All the flashes are compatible, and so any triggers you might get for that, plus cabling if you do it that way.


I've seen soooooo many people tout Canon and Nikon as the best "system" solutions, yet those same people can never seem to see that that's what we have over here at Pentax---but not just for APSC or FF----those plus 645 and for the film cameras as well, up to 6x7 and back to classics from the '60's.

And what wa2kqy (Stan) said is also true! Pentax is the Rodney Dangerfield brand....
Pentax 645 25mm F4 SMC DA - AL (IF) SDM AW - PentaxForums.com

2.500Quid... used... ouch.

---------- Post added 05-15-20 at 10:14 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
For 24x36, I still use Canon, but I was invested into the Canon system long before Pentax had a reasonable solution. The Canon 10D was really much better than the ist*D, and that was my first DSLR. Then came the 5D, which blew away the market for some years. Pentaxians waited a looooong time for a 24x36 solution.

Now, I'm used to the Canons, and they are second-nature for me. Plus, I have a nice range of lenses. But I also like the 645z and I actually did look into a K-1 and the critical lenses when the shutter failed on my 5DII. Just too expensive to start a new system--so I sent the Canon body to Mr. Canon for a new shutter (and they also replaced the mirror box)--at a very reasonable cost of about $400. The aftermarket serves Canon first, Nikon second, and Pentax further down the list, for things like radio slaves and so on. But most people don't need those items--I've managed without them even doing occasional pro work of various types.

Pentax has built great cameras, but so have the others.

When we mix medium format into the equation, Canon and Nikon eliminate themselves from the competition. Even the 50MP Canon can't match the image aesthetics of a 645Z. And the 645 lenses really are excellent--the worst of them are merely good. With Canon, not many lenses get pro consideration except for the expensive L-series lenses. Pentax just didn't make any lenses for 645 that weren't up to professional standards.

But I have to say that I don't think much of Fuji as a long-term investment for professional use. Perhaps the digital world has cured us of the notion of long-term anything. But I used my 5D as my primary camera for nearly a dozen years before adding a (used) 5DII to it, long after the 5DII was replaced by the III and then the IV. And I think I've barely gotten started with the 645Z and I've owned it for two years now. So, I look at long-term commitment from companies. Fuji has made some great medium-format film cameras. But by the time I got interested in them, they had already abandoned them. An example is the GX680, which they retired after 20 years of production in three versions. The lenses do not fit on other Fuji cameras, and are orphaned (I'm not tolerating the use of adapters that include electronics for commercial use--another point of failure). Pentax, on the other hand, introduced the 645 in the very early 80's, and in essence it is still in production. They made the 6x7/67 for 40-odd years in several versions, all of which used the same lenses without issue.

Fuji has, of course, made whole series of fixed-lens medium-format rangefinder cameras, and even some really nice folders. How long were these on the market? The longest were a year or two longer than two decades, but many were discontinued long before that. Not that it matters--with fixed lenses, they had no system capabilities or compatibility issues anyway. Neat cameras, were the Texas Leicas, but not versatile for professional use or particularly long-lived. They were also among the first to abandon large format, despite that their lenses were excellent.

I see Fuji as a company that does not commit to a systems approach, nor do they support their systems for the long haul. I'd hate to invest in a Fuji mirrorless medium-format digital camera and several lenses, only to have it all become obsoleted after too short a time (recognizing how long that is for me). They seem only be interested in what seem to me like current market fads. It seems like playing with things, rather than supporting customers for life. This sets them apart from other major Japanese manufacturers, actually.

Rick "older than many and thus with a longer view" Denney

That's some interesting insights, thanks for sharing Rick


QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxrookie Quote
Bruce, get yourself a Z. You will love the live view in studio especially for product shots. I waited round about two years and then I found one for 2100 EUR from another photog. Just wait and the right one will come. The ccd color thing is not really important. For this you have LR. 😉
Yeah look... 645Z is prolly what I will eventually get, by the time I have funds for a 645D I may just hold out a little longer and save for the funds for a Z.
05-14-2020, 05:46 PM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
Stan, you’re an old-line ham—you know what it is to keep old stuff effectively useful.

Rick “KR9D” Denney
Yes, this is true, but it is worse than that. I have been in electronics, mostly radio, since 1979. I put radios into portable computers for IBM from 81-94, then went Mainstream (rather than Mainframe) with Ericsson until 2009 and then BlackBerry until 2014.

I spent a lot of those years doing sustaining engineering and failure analysis. Which, I still do. I have a lab here at the house. I have plenty of modern instruments, but also plenty of old school HP and Tektronix stuff from back when I began. I do keep it all working.

Much of what I do now involves Legacy stuff I did when new and is still in use.

Yep. Worse than you know! :P

But, I can it all coming to an end before long. I might soon be more Pro with a camera than a spectrum analyzer.

Stan
05-15-2020, 09:56 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Pentax 645 25mm F4 SMC DA - AL (IF) SDM AW - PentaxForums.com

2.500Quid... used... ouch.

---------- Post added 05-15-20 at 10:14 AM ----------



Yes, well....we aren't supposed to comment on marketplace prices, but let's just say several things:

  • The lens is rare as hen's teeth, and unique
  • It's a really good lens (I have one)
  • This copy looks pristine
  • It's a UK listing, so gawd knows what that lens cost new there with VAT added. And because costs are elevated in the UK because of VAT on new items, this might not seem as expensive to a brit as it does to someone in N.A.
  • Finally, you can ask anything you want to....
I got one of these from Used Photo Pro (which Lens Rentals uses to sell their stuff going out of cycle) for about half this price. Not pristine cosmetically by any stretch!!! But I trusted it because it came from Lens Rentals, which vets their equipment thoroughly. Super lens for when "you have no other choice" in terms of tight spaces shooting in architectural circumstances. But it's almost too wide on the Z! I now also have the 28-45.

The point I'll make, is that it's still true that in the main the Pentax system is cheapest and most comprehensive. This lens is an outlier, and the 28-45 and 90 lenses are also, but mainly because they are so new.
05-15-2020, 09:58 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by wa2kqy Quote
Yes, this is true, but it is worse than that. I have been in electronics, mostly radio, since 1979. I put radios into portable computers for IBM from 81-94, then went Mainstream (rather than Mainframe) with Ericsson until 2009 and then BlackBerry until 2014.

I spent a lot of those years doing sustaining engineering and failure analysis. Which, I still do. I have a lab here at the house. I have plenty of modern instruments, but also plenty of old school HP and Tektronix stuff from back when I began. I do keep it all working.

Much of what I do now involves Legacy stuff I did when new and is still in use.

Yep. Worse than you know! :P

But, I can it all coming to an end before long. I might soon be more Pro with a camera than a spectrum analyzer.

Stan
Well, hey now, Stan! With your background, I'll bet you could do some fine testing for the community!
05-15-2020, 01:14 PM   #43
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Hi,

Hmmm. Maybe. Maybe not so much. An optical engineer I am not. RF, Electrical, Mechanical, Software and applicable Chemical. Optics I know from many a microscope. That's a bit different. Photo optics, well just as a user really. I see stuff where folks are shooting test targets and more often than not don't see things so clearly.

I did grab a copy of the Kodak spec sheet for the imager in the 645D and figured out the chip base ISO is on the order of 130 or so. But, then, drilling back thru all the old threads I saw where I could have saved that effort and just turned on expanded ISO and set it to 100.

I am Mr New Guy and a Novice with the 645D and, heck, the entire system. But, I do know enough to say I am getting a lot of bang for my buck.

Stan
05-15-2020, 02:14 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
[*]It's a UK listing, so gawd knows what that lens cost new there with VAT added. And because costs are elevated in the UK because of VAT on new items, this might not seem as expensive to a brit as it does to someone in N.A.
Generally UK prices are dollar = pound (i.e. $2500 works out as £2500). Buying anything from abroad (outside the EU at the moment) adds 25 to 30 percent for VAT and customs, not forgetting that many money transfers add additional extra costs.

Sounds like a lovely lens but way above my budget...
05-15-2020, 10:02 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Yes, well....we aren't supposed to comment on marketplace prices, but let's just say several things:

  • The lens is rare as hen's teeth, and unique
  • It's a really good lens (I have one)
  • This copy looks pristine
  • It's a UK listing, so gawd knows what that lens cost new there with VAT added. And because costs are elevated in the UK because of VAT on new items, this might not seem as expensive to a brit as it does to someone in N.A.
  • Finally, you can ask anything you want to....
I got one of these from Used Photo Pro (which Lens Rentals uses to sell their stuff going out of cycle) for about half this price. Not pristine cosmetically by any stretch!!! But I trusted it because it came from Lens Rentals, which vets their equipment thoroughly. Super lens for when "you have no other choice" in terms of tight spaces shooting in architectural circumstances. But it's almost too wide on the Z! I now also have the 28-45.

The point I'll make, is that it's still true that in the main the Pentax system is cheapest and most comprehensive. This lens is an outlier, and the 28-45 and 90 lenses are also, but mainly because they are so new.
Yeah I have no idea, I just saw your comment before that Fuji lenses are pricey, but then I saw this and thought
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