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05-08-2020, 10:03 PM   #1
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645D, Cheapest Used Digital MF Camera to Buy?

Friends,

I am considering some future camera body changes and incorporate them into my workflow sometime in 2021. Perhaps I should not, but I have high hopes for the K-New, should it have Hybrid OVF/EVF (which I highly suspect it does) it could really be a game changer for Pentax and repair what many consider to be the companies Achilles Heel (sub optimal AF). I adore my FF K-1, but should a crop camera body present itself to capture moments and ease stress during a wedding shoot (but still allow me to use the various wonderful Pentax glass I have collected), then I may indeed port across to a 'Fuji like' mentality by shooting jobs with Crop and MF cameras...

From my preliminary research I adore and can often tell a pronounced difference between MF and FF shots, or at least recognise a MF shot that would not be possible on a FF body. I really crave this kind of shot.

Seeing as MF actually means a whole new camera body and lens line up I am not restricted to the Pentax brand and could seek out something else. Thing is, I am not a wealthy man, I'm not going to have the funds to ever shell out for a GFX 100! I kinda want to dip my toe into MF world and I thought a good place to start would be the 645D. Would it actually be seen as the lowest cheapest entry camera body/system to enter the MF world??
I understand many film options exist (645N, 67II etc), but ultimately for paid work I dunno if I could shoot film (at least not this point in my career).

There doesn't seem to be much info here on the 645D, was there even a review?

So yeah... 645D, cheapest 'dip your toe into the world of digital MF' option? Or am I missing something?


TIA!

BB

05-08-2020, 10:30 PM - 1 Like   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Friends,

I am considering some future camera body changes and incorporate them into my workflow sometime in 2021. Perhaps I should not, but I have high hopes for the K-New, should it have Hybrid OVF/EVF (which I highly suspect it does) it could really be a game changer for Pentax and repair what many consider to be the companies Achilles Heel (sub optimal AF). I adore my FF K-1, but should a crop camera body present itself to capture moments and ease stress during a wedding shoot (but still allow me to use the various wonderful Pentax glass I have collected), then I may indeed port across to a 'Fuji like' mentality by shooting jobs with Crop and MF cameras...

From my preliminary research I adore and can often tell a pronounced difference between MF and FF shots, or at least recognise a MF shot that would not be possible on a FF body. I really crave this kind of shot.

Seeing as MF actually means a whole new camera body and lens line up I am not restricted to the Pentax brand and could seek out something else. Thing is, I am not a wealthy man, I'm not going to have the funds to ever shell out for a GFX 100! I kinda want to dip my toe into MF world and I thought a good place to start would be the 645D. Would it actually be seen as the lowest cheapest entry camera body/system to enter the MF world??
I understand many film options exist (645N, 67II etc), but ultimately for paid work I dunno if I could shoot film (at least not this point in my career).

There doesn't seem to be much info here on the 645D, was there even a review?

So yeah... 645D, cheapest 'dip your toe into the world of digital MF' option? Or am I missing something?


TIA!

BB
Two months ago I added a 645Z and lenses. Was looking at 645D but a Z fell into my lap. Wish I'd done it sooner. Didn't realize how affordable 645 lenses could be. The used lenses are the secret. I originally thought every lens was going to run $1-2K.

The poor K-1 has been sitting in the bag. I'm sure it will get to play again at a later date. I have too many lenses for it that aren't even available in medium format. I shoot for fun and have no idea how the 645 would be for work.

Thanks,
barondla
05-08-2020, 10:33 PM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Two months ago I added a 645Z and lenses. Was looking at 645D but a Z fell into my lap. Wish I'd done it sooner. Didn't realize how affordable 645 lenses could be. The used lenses are the secret. I originally thought every lens was going to run $1-2K.

The poor K-1 has been sitting in the bag. I'm sure it will get to play again at a later date. I have too many lenses for it that aren't even available in medium format. I shoot for fun and have no idea how the 645 would be for work.

Thanks,
barondla
Good feedback, yeah a Z would be a lot more preferable, sadly I think its about twice the price used compared to the D. From a workflow perspective I would image the K-New to hopefully being better at capturing moments (better AF, deeper buffer, better fps), then the 645 would be used for more formal slower paced work (landscape, studio portraits etc). I'm just feeling like FF is in the middle between the two, and I wouldn't be thinking this way if it was a new FF in the work (which will come I'm sure), but I can see myself in 2021 shooting Crop and MF and no FF, then later in future years MF and FF.
05-08-2020, 10:55 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by BruceBanner Quote
Good feedback, yeah a Z would be a lot more preferable, sadly I think its about twice the price used compared to the D. From a workflow perspective I would image the K-New to hopefully being better at capturing moments (better AF, deeper buffer, better fps), then the 645 would be used for more formal slower paced work (landscape, studio portraits etc). I'm just feeling like FF is in the middle between the two, and I wouldn't be thinking this way if it was a new FF in the work (which will come I'm sure), but I can see myself in 2021 shooting Crop and MF and no FF, then later in future years MF and FF.
Not sure a Z is a lot more prefervbable. It gains slightly more pixels, faster shooting, liveview, and high ISO, but loses the ccd sensor. Some say ccd is unbeat for color image qualty. I may add a D one day to see.

Are you shooting subjects so fast that the K-1 is insufficient?
Thanks,
barondla

My first attempts with digital medium format. I 'd only had the camera a month, and the lens arrived 2 days before the challenge. Had little time to shoot some of these, since I am an essential employee. Single In April 2020 | Flickr

05-09-2020, 01:16 AM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Not sure a Z is a lot more prefervbable. It gains slightly more pixels, faster shooting, liveview, and high ISO, but loses the ccd sensor. Some say ccd is unbeat for color image qualty. I may add a D one day to see.

Are you shooting subjects so fast that the K-1 is insufficient?
Thanks,
barondla

My first attempts with digital medium format. I 'd only had the camera a month, and the lens arrived 2 days before the challenge. Had little time to shoot some of these, since I am an essential employee. Single In April 2020 | Flickr
Fast? Not so much, more to do with AF accuracy and buffer. Typically for example u will shoot a wedding ceremony, and it begins with the flower girl coming down the aisle, she might only be walking but even Pentax struggles with good AF keepers for targets coming towards the user (targets walking away is a different story and you get way more keepers from that scenario, but yeh who wants bums in focus shots lol... actually... prolly a lot of people ). So you fire off 10-13 shots of the flower girl, hoping to get a moment that represents the mood best, her smiling, the flower petals tossed up into the air in a nice way etc, all the while knowing a good 50% will be out of focus.. lol #pentaxlife.
But wait there's more! Now you have the maid of honour walking towards you... damn... I hope the buffer can handle another burst of 10-13 shots within a 3-5 sec period...
Ok... now its the really important moment, bride and father of the bride, but wait... the buffer is starting to crap out... argh!

And that's before the actual ceremony, capturing moments, kisses etc.

The thing about event photography is it's unpredictable. You can have a speech moment and you see a funny moment unfold, you feel 'this is my time! I have to capture these moments!' so you go into overdrive and shoot the speaker and crowd reactions. You feel really happy, you burst like crazy, you know you got some great moments, you feel chuffed, you pushed the camera hard when it needed it, and now the buffer is locked up, but it's ok right... u got the moment... right? Wrong... someone from the crowd says something funny (heckles or whatever) and now this new moment is even more hilarious than the first!! Argh! These moments are even better than the last! But the camera is stuck and locked up... yer not squeezing off nearly enough shots...

This is the life of a Pentax event shooter, trust me lol. It's not something you can easily navigate, better AF and Buffer just helps, period... because... the unpredictability factor of moments (and photography is all about moments).

So in this regard, I would be happy to compromise and lose FF and be on 'only' crop if there was substantial improvements in these kind of scenarios. I would replace the K-1 with an even bigger sensor for those shots that just cry out for MF.
05-09-2020, 03:34 AM - 1 Like   #6
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I get a little uneasy when people talk about paid for work (especially weddings) but looking to use old, used gear on cost grounds. For this you should be using the most likely to be reliable gear (i.e.newer rather than older) with a backup (or two). If you charge for the job correctly, it shouldn't take long for even a new Z to pay for itself.

That said, the D is a fine MF DSLR if you've got the time to be patient for the image review to display. Current used costs make it very affordable - although I'd buy from a dealer with warranty or support. Probably the most important improvement in the Z is the increased response to both shooting and review - both sound important for weddings & events (perhaps less so for posed shots or portraits where you can control things better).

Perception plays a big part in marketing - when a bride's friend is looking for a photographer, they may remember the wedding guy with that 'big' camera Uncle Harry doesn't have more vividly.

Last edited by johnha; 05-09-2020 at 03:39 AM.
05-09-2020, 03:50 AM - 2 Likes   #7
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Hi,

I just went through this process myself about a month ago. Like you, not in a financial position to buy a GFX 100. Or, a 50s for that matter. I have not seen a 645Z priced low enough either. But, I did see a few 645D units which I could afford.

I used to use a Contax 645 with a 16 MP Kodak back alongside a Nikon F5 with a 6 MP Kodak back. Now I have a 16 MP Nikon Df and wanted something Medium Format to go with. That the 645D has a Kodak CCD is even better in my book.

Here is what I wound up with, body and lenses and their cost. The camera and all but the 300mm by way of lenses came from a camera shop. I presume a trade-in, but I didn't specifically ask if they all came from the same client.


645D w/battery and one 32GB card: $1567.71
645 FA 45-85/4.5: $190.25
645 FA 80-160/4.5: $291.06
645 A* 300/4: $200.00
645 1.4x Converter A: $46.84
645 2x Converter A: $43.69
645 FA 200/4: $133.88
Hood for FA 200/4: $21.66
Second Pentax brand new battery: $16.99
Second 32GB 40x memory card: $6.30
Generic remote shutter release: $6.46 (I had to trim the overmold plastic on the plug for it to fit the camera)

This entire setup was less cost than if I had gone for a higher res Nikon body. Which, I was hesitant to do as my Nikon lenses are from the film era and likely to not perform so well above 30 MP.

I don't think you can do better buying into a medium format digital system than this. And, the lenses will work as manual focus on a Fuji GFX body later on.

And, my lens choices came from many posts on the 645D and Z. Go back through the 90-some pages here in this forum. There is a ton of threads and posts.

Stan

05-09-2020, 04:22 AM - 1 Like   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnha Quote
I get a little uneasy when people talk about paid for work (especially weddings) but looking to use old, used gear on cost grounds. For this you should be using the most likely to be reliable gear (i.e.newer rather than older) with a backup (or two). If you charge for the job correctly, it shouldn't take long for even a new Z to pay for itself.

That said, the D is a fine MF DSLR if you've got the time to be patient for the image review to display. Current used costs make it very affordable - although I'd buy from a dealer with warranty or support. Probably the most important improvement in the Z is the increased response to both shooting and review - both sound important for weddings & events (perhaps less so for posed shots or portraits where you can control things better).

Perception plays a big part in marketing - when a bride's friend is looking for a photographer, they may remember the wedding guy with that 'big' camera Uncle Harry doesn't have more vividly.
Thanks for that, and yes it's good to bring up the idea of using old gear for professional work and the possible failures associated. Backups are paramount, I have to how double the lenses, batteries, cameras, lights, stands, softboxes, triggers... it gets expensive real quick! It's why stretching to something else becomes a financial consideration, still working off old gear debt and setup costs.

In this instance the 645D would be 'the icing on the cake' for something like weddings, not the bread and butter shots. There would have to be a backup camera for the K-new, not thinking the 645D would be it. I've seen some wedding shooters do the Hybrid thing, where they shoot digital and film, the 645D would be 'my film' with, most 'capture the moment shots would be done without a chimp, just a shot fired and back to the bread and butter camera.

But that's just weddings, there are other 'non high pressure' jobs I do, commercial stuff, landscape etc. So if it does die on the job its not an immediate concern, something I can take a few days to sort out.

The idea was to dip my toe in first, and the CCD has me really interested, the Z although better for the reasons you have listed I'm not sure would be that important on certain jobs and indeed in weddings you don't have a lot of time to chimp and check things anyway. I think I'd be treating the Z and D a bit like film cameras in this regard.
05-09-2020, 04:26 AM - 1 Like   #9
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Congratulations Stan - you basically stole it all for that kind of money! I bought m Z body new, and several lenses used or demo/open box. I have a 35 and 120 Macro that I absolutely love. Both were dirt cheap. A couple of new ones too, but there's nothing like finding a gem going cheap.
05-09-2020, 06:36 AM - 1 Like   #10
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Hello !

You may say I'm "paranoid" but, for me, the shutter count is of the ultimate importance. I never had a camera body die on me yet (I just lost an old FA 80-320 mm lens, the first item lost in 55 years of photography), but I purchase only cameras with the highest possible shutter actuation potential (ex. Pentax K3 rated at 200 000 actuations, Pentax K1 rated at 300 000 actuations and Pentax 645Z rated at 100 000 actuations). I considered buying a 645D three years ago when I felt ready to get into MF digital (I had used a 645N film camera for 10 years and had some 645 A lenses in store) but when I learned its shutter was quoted at only 50 000 actuations (some users will certainly get more, some will get less but on average statistically it is the predicted useful life of this shutter), I started looking for a 645Z instead. I found a demo at Camera Canada in London, Ontario, I negotiated a deal with the store manager and purchased this MF body for a very good price. When I checked it upon arrival at my home, the shutter count was "136", can you imagine my joy and relief ! Since purchasing this 645Z, I acquired on eBay six like-new FA used lenses (FA 45-85 mm, FA 80-160 mm, FA 150-300 mm, FA 120 mm Macro, FA 200 mm, and FA 400 mm) and all have proven their worth. If I can give you a piece of advice learned from experience : "ALWAYS GET TO KNOW THE SHUTTER COUNT BEFORE YOU BUY".

Regards and take your time and check thoroughly before buying !

Last edited by RICHARD L.; 05-09-2020 at 09:00 AM.
05-09-2020, 02:46 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by RICHARD L. Quote

Hello !

You may say I'm "paranoid" but, for me, the shutter count is of the ultimate importance. I never had a camera body die on me yet (I just lost an old FA 80-320 mm lens, the first item lost in 55 years of photography), but I purchase only cameras with the highest possible shutter actuation potential (ex. Pentax K3 rated at 200 000 actuations, Pentax K1 rated at 300 000 actuations and Pentax 645Z rated at 100 000 actuations). I considered buying a 645D three years ago when I felt ready to get into MF digital (I had used a 645N film camera for 10 years and had some 645 A lenses in store) but when I learned its shutter was quoted at only 50 000 actuations (some users will certainly get more, some will get less but on average statistically it is the predicted useful life of this shutter), I started looking for a 645Z instead. I found a demo at Camera Canada in London, Ontario, I negotiated a deal with the store manager and purchased this MF body for a very good price. When I checked it upon arrival at my home, the shutter count was "136", can you imagine my joy and relief ! Since purchasing this 645Z, I acquired on eBay six like-new FA used lenses (FA 45-85 mm, FA 80-160 mm, FA 150-300 mm, FA 120 mm Macro, FA 200 mm, and FA 400 mm) and all have proven their worth. If I can give you a piece of advice learned from experience : "ALWAYS GET TO KNOW THE SHUTTER COUNT BEFORE YOU BUY".

Regards and take your time and check thoroughly before buying !
Yeah, it is a concern I admit, I'm already pass 60,000 on my K-1

Keen to see how @Ed Hurst gets on with his repair of his 645Z with CR Kennedy, could it be so expensive that just buying another 645Z is a better option etc.
05-09-2020, 05:13 PM   #12
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It is a misunderstanding that the shutter rating is the lifespan of the shutter. It is the number of actuation that the manufacturer guarantees that the shutter is within specification. This is set very conservatively.
I read a test in the film days of a Canon Rebel whose shutter stopped working on 400 000 actuation. I think it was rated at 20 000......
05-09-2020, 05:56 PM - 1 Like   #13
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645D, Cheapest Used Digital MF Camera to Buy?

When I do a wedding (extremely rare for many years now), I don’t shoot bursts. I see photographers depending on 9 frames/second to shoot a burst of a dozen shots for a freaking altar return shot where the subjects are just standing there. Really?

It’s as though no wedding photographers were ever successful back when they shot the entire event with 10 rolls of Vericolor, as I used to do. For walking down the aisle, I focused the camera on a spot, and shot the subject when they reached that spot.

In the digital world, I shoot more like 1200 shots—never in burst mode. Even that chews up far too much editing time.

I would use the 645z for a wedding, but not if I planned to make 3000-4000 images. I have also used a Canon 5D and 5DII. If I was the primary photographer at a wedding, I’d use the Pentax for portraits and posed altar returns, and the Canon for candids, with each being the backup for the other. And both in single-shot mode.

In my film days, I always showed up with two cameras, once I learned to be professional about it. Early on, it was a Mamiya C3 and Yashica TLR, then the C3 and a C33, followed by the C33 and a C330—all bought used but deeply tested and CLA’d. My last film wedding was a Pentax 645N and 645NII. The only camera to fail at a gig was the C330, and thankfully I knew it was a problem from the feel of the advance crank. I was always deeply afraid of the invisible fault—my mentor blew a wedding because the flash sync on his Crown Graphic slipped off of X without his noticing. I always built that into my routine—shoot picture, advance film, check frame count, check sync switch, cock shutter (a separate operation on the C3), make sure the PC cord (Paramount brand only!) was still seated, check aperture to be at f/8 (the setting on the automatic flash), and now ready for the next photo. All that took about 0.75 seconds.

Rick “thinking even a 5DII with grip, Stroboframe, and remote flash was unlikely to be confused with Uncle Harry “ Denney

Last edited by rdenney; 05-09-2020 at 06:07 PM.
05-09-2020, 10:43 PM   #14
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When considering shutter count, dividing the cost by assumed remaining cycles gives you an idea how much it costs per click - probably less than 10 cents. The D is not a speed machine, at 1.1 fps, it's better for considered shooting than spray & pray.
05-09-2020, 10:54 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by rdenney Quote
When I do a wedding (extremely rare for many years now), I don’t shoot bursts. I see photographers depending on 9 frames/second to shoot a burst of a dozen shots for a freaking altar return shot where the subjects are just standing there. Really?

It’s as though no wedding photographers were ever successful back when they shot the entire event with 10 rolls of Vericolor, as I used to do. For walking down the aisle, I focused the camera on a spot, and shot the subject when they reached that spot.

In the digital world, I shoot more like 1200 shots—never in burst mode. Even that chews up far too much editing time.

I would use the 645z for a wedding, but not if I planned to make 3000-4000 images. I have also used a Canon 5D and 5DII. If I was the primary photographer at a wedding, I’d use the Pentax for portraits and posed altar returns, and the Canon for candids, with each being the backup for the other. And both in single-shot mode.

In my film days, I always showed up with two cameras, once I learned to be professional about it. Early on, it was a Mamiya C3 and Yashica TLR, then the C3 and a C33, followed by the C33 and a C330—all bought used but deeply tested and CLA’d. My last film wedding was a Pentax 645N and 645NII. The only camera to fail at a gig was the C330, and thankfully I knew it was a problem from the feel of the advance crank. I was always deeply afraid of the invisible fault—my mentor blew a wedding because the flash sync on his Crown Graphic slipped off of X without his noticing. I always built that into my routine—shoot picture, advance film, check frame count, check sync switch, cock shutter (a separate operation on the C3), make sure the PC cord (Paramount brand only!) was still seated, check aperture to be at f/8 (the setting on the automatic flash), and now ready for the next photo. All that took about 0.75 seconds.

Rick “thinking even a 5DII with grip, Stroboframe, and remote flash was unlikely to be confused with Uncle Harry “ Denney
I'm completely over the arguments of multiple frames captured for a moment vs trying to predict and be careful with your shot. For every great film shot where a moment is captured really well (often cited as evidence), there are a gazillion moments lost that were not. Digital's major benefit over film is the ability to take multiple shots in quick succession at any given period, and Pentax is just one of those brands that handles that aspect worst (and you know that's ok... Pentax has never marketed itself as an event camera system, it's always marketed towards landscape and portrait sessions that ooze 'slow paced/controlled', not 'capture the moment stuff'). Pictures are about moments and if you have 13 images to choose from and image 9/13 best represents that moment (everything comes together the best, facial expression, background context, lighting etc) then that's just more power to the tog, it means a happier client and better marketing material. If you were controlled and tried to single shot the moment, maybe you caught moment 4/13 only and you know what, it was soft, expression not great, basically a C rated image, not an A. That's the difference, and when you factor in that facial expressions are quick and often subtle, the difference of 1 sec between moments captured can be absolutely massive.
Editing time can be quick, I don't find culling to being particularly painful, not these days at least (with our computing power). Forward arrow key presses to skip to the next file and another key to mark the file a keeper or not, simple. 1200 images culled down to 200 in 20mins.

QuoteOriginally posted by RICHARD L. Quote
Someone said his 645Z had had 250 000 actuations and was still doing great, so we keep our fingers crossed ... lol !
Yeah, I figured that. I am interested mainly in the repair cost. I'm imagining for example that a repair for the 645D might not be worth it, but for the 645Z still worth the financial pain...

Last edited by BruceBanner; 05-09-2020 at 11:22 PM.
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