Pentax 645Z next model

**ProfessorBuzz** · 10-02-2020, 05:31 AM - **1 Like**

Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions:
Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group
and the industrial ones:
Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group

**TDvN57** · 10-02-2020, 08:18 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by grantsarichev

Hi,man!Thanks for the answer, I see that you are well versed in the matter. I agree with you that there is nothing new in the 50s either (although there are more AF points). So I see a "SAFOX II TTL phase-matching" autofocus system in Pentax 645Z (but fewer AF points), and contrast autofocus (with a large number of points) in Fuji 50s, from the reviews I saw that Fuji has faster autofocusing, but as far as I know, phase detection autofocus is faster, so where do you think it is faster? And a global issue; I want a universal medium format camera with full frame functions (fast phase detection autofocus, image stabilization, etc.), and I see trends for this, for example Fuji GFX 100. I'm willing to pay that kind of money, but I would like to have such a Pentax and not a Fuji (although they say it's amazing not only because of megapixels, but has a divine color rendering, I would like to hear your opinion about this), and I want to understand when you can expect something like that? What advantages can you personally say for Fuji 50s and Pentax 645Z when you compare them. Thanks for the excellent answers

If you really want to understand what the 645z offers in MF and whether MF is suitable for your style of photography, then I suggest to first look at the competitors like phase one and hasselblad that use the same 51m sensor. You won't find many of the FF features you are looking for in the those cameras.

Technology, physics and cost are major obstacles once you move from FF to MF.

I suggest not to look at the Z as a replacement for FF or APS-C cameras, MF is a tool (genre?) of it's own. Many MF shots cannot be replicated in FF because MF has a certain look where the bokeh rolls off creating an almost 3D look. Not all shots have this, but if your stars line up you'll get your shot. FF or APS-C don't have that capability. The full frame 645 version will create this look much easier, because the 51m sensor is essentially a crop frame 645.

Just my 10 cents...

texandrews · 10-02-2020, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by stevebrot

This is starting to read a lot like the other thread.

Indeed, as I mentioned before...

Quote:

(...something is fishy...)

One reason I am still engaged here is because I'm monitoring the thread.

texandrews · 10-02-2020, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz

Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions:
Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group
and the industrial ones:
Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group

Those are interesting links...one reason being that there seem to be some sensors missing from the consumer chart.

**kaseki** · 10-02-2020, 09:19 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz

Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions:
Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group
and the industrial ones:
Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group

The IMX411 active sensor size appears to be nearly full frame in Pentax 645 MF. How convenient.

66.7 (3/5) = 40mm; 66.7 (4/5) = 53mm

c.f. 41.5 mm × 56mm film area (69.7mm diagonal).

texandrews · 10-02-2020, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by kaseki

The IMX411 active sensor size appears to be nearly full frame in Pentax 645 MF. How convenient.

66.7 (3/5) = 40mm; 66.7 (4/5) = 53mm

c.f. 41.5 mm × 56mm film area (69.7mm diagonal).

Very convenient indeed....

photoptimist · 10-02-2020, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by texandrews

Very convenient indeed....

Indeed!

The datasheet (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX411ALR_AQR_Flyer.pdf) shows that it has a photosensitive area of 40mm x 53.4 mm. It also includes 16-bit output albeit at a stately 2 frames per second.

(But we still don't know what "100mm matrix" means.)

**barondla** · 10-02-2020, 10:08 AM

Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there?

Thanks,
barondla

texandrews · 10-02-2020, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by photoptimist

Indeed!

The datasheet (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX411ALR_AQR_Flyer.pdf) shows that it has a photosensitive area of 40mm x 53.4 mm. It also includes 16-bit output albeit at a stately 2 frames per second.

(But we still don't know what "100mm matrix" means.)

Yeah, that's stately all right. Maybe it has a lower bit faster rate? But for what I do, 16 bit at 2fps would be just fine. It's faster than the tether I think!

texandrews · 10-02-2020, 12:18 PM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by barondla

Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there?

Thanks,
barondla

I think there's just 2, and one is mostly crop because of the hood (which is metal and integral, but still can be modified as I understand it.). I don't think coverage would be an issue for a lot of the lenses (with respect to off of center sharpness drop offs).

The thing with FF or crop for me is a little complicated. I'll bet FF 645 would cost a bunch--I'd have to get a loan, and I'm not sure I could. But it would be pretty future proof in terms of output in my field---I'd compete favorably with Phase One institutional based cameras.

OTOH, a crop camera with IBIS (and what comes with it, composition adjustment and especially PS), better video, a bit faster, several other tweaks I won't go into, could be functionally a better camera for me for my pro work as it is today and most likely the next several years.

stevebrot · 10-02-2020, 12:49 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by texandrews

The thing with FF or crop for me is a little complicated.

The choices at present are crop, not-so crop, and even less crop. Nobody provides true FF 645 (0.62075 crop factor).

Steve

**TDvN57** · 10-02-2020, 04:49 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by barondla

Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there?

Thanks,
barondla

I would prefer the FF. Before I sold my 645 film camera I took a few pictures with the 28-45 and could not see any vignetting on the film. So with a bit of luck I think it may just work fine on the FF sensor since I think even the FF sensor is slightly smaller than the film - not sure.

For my purposes, I need only two improvements on the Z, a much bigger and faster buffer (relatively speaking), even less noise at high ISO up to 100k. All other improvements will be gravy for me. :-)

**kaseki** · 10-02-2020, 05:25 PM - **1 Like**

The chip appears to have a large number of modes related to resolution and readout. So, without pulling up the flier again, I think that there are modes that can provide higher frame rates at some cost in other parameters.

It used to be that effort was needed for a CRT to provide more than 10 distinguishable shades of gray. And here we are being presented 16-bit readouts.

texandrews · 10-03-2020, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by TDvN57

I would prefer the FF. Before I sold my 645 film camera I took a few pictures with the 28-45 and could not see any vignetting on the film. So with a bit of luck I think it may just work fine on the FF sensor since I think even the FF sensor is slightly smaller than the film - not sure.

For my purposes, I need only two improvements on the Z, a much bigger and faster buffer (relatively speaking), even less noise at high ISO up to 100k. All other improvements will be gravy for me. :-)

Good to hear on the 28-45!

normhead · 10-03-2020, 07:24 AM

Traditionally the 645 line is updated after the APS-c flagship. But it could still be year or two.

10-02-2020, 09:26 AM	#66
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Yeah...my heart is starting to beat a tick faster Originally posted by kaseki The IMX411 active sensor size appears to be nearly full frame in Pentax 645 MF. How convenient. 66.7 (3/5) = 40mm; 66.7 (4/5) = 53mm c.f. 41.5 mm × 56mm film area (69.7mm diagonal). Very convenient indeed....

10-02-2020, 10:08 AM	#68
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,717	Crop with more pixels or FF? Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there? Thanks, barondla

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10-02-2020, 05:31 AM - 1 Like	#61
ProfessorBuzz Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2018 Posts: 1,903	Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions: Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group and the industrial ones: Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group

10-02-2020, 08:18 AM - 2 Likes	#62
TDvN57 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Berlin Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by grantsarichev Hi,man!Thanks for the answer, I see that you are well versed in the matter. I agree with you that there is nothing new in the 50s either (although there are more AF points). So I see a "SAFOX II TTL phase-matching" autofocus system in Pentax 645Z (but fewer AF points), and contrast autofocus (with a large number of points) in Fuji 50s, from the reviews I saw that Fuji has faster autofocusing, but as far as I know, phase detection autofocus is faster, so where do you think it is faster? And a global issue; I want a universal medium format camera with full frame functions (fast phase detection autofocus, image stabilization, etc.), and I see trends for this, for example Fuji GFX 100. I'm willing to pay that kind of money, but I would like to have such a Pentax and not a Fuji (although they say it's amazing not only because of megapixels, but has a divine color rendering, I would like to hear your opinion about this), and I want to understand when you can expect something like that? What advantages can you personally say for Fuji 50s and Pentax 645Z when you compare them. Thanks for the excellent answers If you really want to understand what the 645z offers in MF and whether MF is suitable for your style of photography, then I suggest to first look at the competitors like phase one and hasselblad that use the same 51m sensor. You won't find many of the FF features you are looking for in the those cameras. Technology, physics and cost are major obstacles once you move from FF to MF. I suggest not to look at the Z as a replacement for FF or APS-C cameras, MF is a tool (genre?) of it's own. Many MF shots cannot be replicated in FF because MF has a certain look where the bokeh rolls off creating an almost 3D look. Not all shots have this, but if your stars line up you'll get your shot. FF or APS-C don't have that capability. The full frame 645 version will create this look much easier, because the 51m sensor is essentially a crop frame 645. Just my 10 cents...

10-02-2020, 08:28 AM	#63
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by stevebrot This is starting to read a lot like the other thread. Indeed, as I mentioned before... Quote: (...something is fishy...) One reason I am still engaged here is because I'm monitoring the thread.

10-02-2020, 08:31 AM	#64
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions: Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group and the industrial ones: Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group Those are interesting links...one reason being that there seem to be some sensors missing from the consumer chart.

10-02-2020, 09:19 AM - 2 Likes	#65
kaseki Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,138	Originally posted by ProfessorBuzz Here's the Sony sensors aimed at the consumer camera market. Draw your own conclusions: Products?Image Sensor?Consumer Camera?products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group and the industrial ones: Products?Image Sensor?Industry?Products?Sony Semiconductor Solutions Group The IMX411 active sensor size appears to be nearly full frame in Pentax 645 MF. How convenient. 66.7 (3/5) = 40mm; 66.7 (4/5) = 53mm c.f. 41.5 mm × 56mm film area (69.7mm diagonal).

10-02-2020, 09:40 AM	#67
photoptimist Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2016 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,128	Originally posted by texandrews Very convenient indeed.... Indeed! The datasheet (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX411ALR_AQR_Flyer.pdf) shows that it has a photosensitive area of 40mm x 53.4 mm. It also includes 16-bit output albeit at a stately 2 frames per second. (But we still don't know what "100mm matrix" means.)

10-02-2020, 12:03 PM	#69
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by photoptimist Indeed! The datasheet (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products/common/pdf/IMX411ALR_AQR_Flyer.pdf) shows that it has a photosensitive area of 40mm x 53.4 mm. It also includes 16-bit output albeit at a stately 2 frames per second. (But we still don't know what "100mm matrix" means.) Yeah, that's stately all right. Maybe it has a lower bit faster rate? But for what I do, 16 bit at 2fps would be just fine. It's faster than the tether I think!

10-02-2020, 12:18 PM - 3 Likes	#70
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by barondla Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there? Thanks, barondla I think there's just 2, and one is mostly crop because of the hood (which is metal and integral, but still can be modified as I understand it.). I don't think coverage would be an issue for a lot of the lenses (with respect to off of center sharpness drop offs). The thing with FF or crop for me is a little complicated. I'll bet FF 645 would cost a bunch--I'd have to get a loan, and I'm not sure I could. But it would be pretty future proof in terms of output in my field---I'd compete favorably with Phase One institutional based cameras. OTOH, a crop camera with IBIS (and what comes with it, composition adjustment and especially PS), better video, a bit faster, several other tweaks I won't go into, could be functionally a better camera for me for my pro work as it is today and most likely the next several years.

10-02-2020, 12:49 PM - 1 Like	#71
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by texandrews The thing with FF or crop for me is a little complicated. The choices at present are crop, not-so crop, and even less crop. Nobody provides true FF 645 (0.62075 crop factor). Steve

10-02-2020, 04:49 PM - 1 Like	#72
TDvN57 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Berlin Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by barondla Which would you rather have? Think I'd pick FF, but I'd have to check my lenses for coverage. Also depends on price. How many different crop 645 focal lengths are there? Thanks, barondla I would prefer the FF. Before I sold my 645 film camera I took a few pictures with the 28-45 and could not see any vignetting on the film. So with a bit of luck I think it may just work fine on the FF sensor since I think even the FF sensor is slightly smaller than the film - not sure. For my purposes, I need only two improvements on the Z, a much bigger and faster buffer (relatively speaking), even less noise at high ISO up to 100k. All other improvements will be gravy for me. :-)

10-02-2020, 05:25 PM - 1 Like	#73
kaseki Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,138	The chip appears to have a large number of modes related to resolution and readout. So, without pulling up the flier again, I think that there are modes that can provide higher frame rates at some cost in other parameters. It used to be that effort was needed for a CRT to provide more than 10 distinguishable shades of gray. And here we are being presented 16-bit readouts.

10-03-2020, 07:19 AM	#74
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by TDvN57 I would prefer the FF. Before I sold my 645 film camera I took a few pictures with the 28-45 and could not see any vignetting on the film. So with a bit of luck I think it may just work fine on the FF sensor since I think even the FF sensor is slightly smaller than the film - not sure. For my purposes, I need only two improvements on the Z, a much bigger and faster buffer (relatively speaking), even less noise at high ISO up to 100k. All other improvements will be gravy for me. :-) Good to hear on the 28-45!

10-03-2020, 07:24 AM	#75
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Traditionally the 645 line is updated after the APS-c flagship. But it could still be year or two.