[Foamberg]

at the end of the day we can state recent cameras are nearly perfect but 90% of so called photographers are lousy...! this makes no sense..! ;-)

My introduction to mf was with a loupe looking at a contact sheet of a pro photographer's pictures I met at the lab where I had my film developed. He was selecting frames to be enlarged for his client and allowed me to take a look. I was hooked and knew I had to get a MF camera, which led me to the Pentax 6x7 a kit lens 105mm f2.4 and a handheld light meter.

The images I saw through the loupe were lifelike and is something that is seemingly impossible with a 35mm.

I'm sure my experience is far from unique and I am sure most people that love MF had similar experiences.

I could never replicate that experience with the 645 film. Transparencies came close but not quite.

Despite that the 645z placed itself (in my humble opinion) as a class above FF. Perhaps the image quality or the resolution or the low light capabilities made the difference, I can't tell. It was just superior.

Last week my wife got the Z7ii as a second camera aside her main D850. I was never impressed with the D850 or the D810. The iq was not bad for a FF but low light performance was underwhelming. She could never take high quality shots at higher than 800iso. So when the Z7ii arrived she asked me to check it out. I was amazed, the iq is at least equal to the 645z and low noise at higher iso is definitely superior to the 645z. At 45mpx it is a formidable camera with high frame rate shooting with an extensive buffer that lasts almost 10 seconds. All in raw format.

I know I'm comparing 2021 camera with a 2014 camera, which is unfair, but the reality is that both of these are on the shelves.

That is why I'm saying that Pentax will have to decide on the demographic of their market and get focused on developing that market. Coming out with a new model of a full range of cameras at long intervals will always cause them to fall behind and having to play catchup with technology.

Trying to service the full range of formats is an expensive strategy which will dilute the limited funds and resources available.

So we can debate and agree and disagree all we like, but since nobody knows what is Pentax's strategy, nor does it seem possible to figure it out from the crumbs of information we hear and deduce. All we hear and see is the ceo demonstrating the fast shutter speed of the new K3. I'm sure it is a great camera, but that is not my point.

I've been a Pentax shooter since the early 80's and many on this forum pre date that by a lot, and I have a deep respect for the brand and my fellow Pentaxians. These are difficult times and unless Pentax stop to act like a broad market leader which they once were, and develop their new position as a niche expert brand, we all risk ending up with a lot of expensive and obsolete gear.

[jatrax]

at the end of the day we can state recent cameras are nearly perfect but 90% of so called photographers are lousy...! this makes no sense..! ;-)

Actually that is true for most things.


- I can sit in a race car and probably drive it around the track as could most people but maybe .1% of population could actually use it properly

- my son is a heavy equipment operator, I can sit in the cab and work the levers but all I do is make a mess. He has a gift that lets him make it look easy

- I can pick up a brush and oil paints at the local store and pretend I am a painter but all I would produce would be a blob

Many people can pick up a tool and try to use it but in all things some are better than others and usually only a tiny percentage have the combination of skill and dedication to become really good. And for those few the tool often matters very little, they can produce amazing results with the poorest of equipment.

I think I could become a good photographer (not world class, but good) if I quit my day job and dedicated myself all day, every day to learning the craft. Unfortunately I would starve before I achieved the level of "goodness" required to make a living at it.

[SFTphotography]

Seen this back home

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/fujifilm-gfx-100s-medium-format-camera-body-17...

100mp - £5500..

Pentax could use this sensor - take the AF system from the K1 FF DSLR and call it job done.

If Pentax abandon the format - Fuji will get the business.

[itshimitis]

Seen this back home

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/fujifilm-gfx-100s-medium-format-camera-body-17...

100mp - £5500..

Pentax could use this sensor - take the AF system from the K1 FF DSLR and call it job done.

If Pentax abandon the format - Fuji will get the business.

I'm extremely tempted...

[texandrews]

I'm extremely tempted...

Try one first if you haven't.


I'm a big fan of Fuji---loved their color films, their instant film, their large format and enlarger lenses, their film era medium format cameras. I admire the designs of their apsc line, and I did like the compactness of the digital medium format cameras, and loved the tilt viewfinder attachment, until the previous 100mp beast which seemed awkward to me. People I trust say the new medium format lenses are excellent.

I'm neutral about EVF's and mirrorless in general. Have used them and liked them. REALLY did not like the EVF on the Fuji MF I tried out in my local pro shop. I was one of the minority of people who could detect strong flicker in the EVF, and it was so strong for me that I know it would have given me a headache. Not true for my Sony cameras.

[TDvN57]

Seen this back home

https://www.wexphotovideo.com/fujifilm-gfx-100s-medium-format-camera-body-17...

100mp - £5500..

Pentax could use this sensor - take the AF system from the K1 FF DSLR and call it job done.

If Pentax abandon the format - Fuji will get the business.

I really hope Pentax sees this as an opportunity to go directly to 645 full frame with the 150mpx sensor. To overcome potential lens issues they can try a deal with Topaz to embed some of their products into the camera's processing.

The 645 full frame 150mpx is an open market waiting for a low cost player.

I'm not sure if Fuji's lenses and camera throat size can go full frame. If nor, then Pentax wild have a real opportunity here.

Just my ten cents...

[SylvainB]

Try one first if you haven't.

(...)
I'm neutral about EVF's and mirrorless in general. Have used them and liked them. REALLY did not like the EVF on the Fuji MF I tried out in my local pro shop. I was one of the minority of people who could detect strong flicker in the EVF, and it was so strong for me that I know it would have given me a headache. Not true for my Sony cameras.

Same for me... although I am not a big fan of EVFs in general for the moment. Among the few I have quickly tried, the Fujis GFX were the worst. And the new GFX100s doesn't even have the best possible EVF on paper.

.

(...)
The 645 full frame 150mpx is an open market waiting for a low cost player.

I'm not sure if Fuji's lenses and camera throat size can go full frame. If nor, then Pentax wild have a real opportunity here.

Just my ten cents...

Are you ready to pay >20K€ for this ? That would be the low cost of such a camera I think. No idea how the lenses would deal with such a sensor (sensor size + resolution)

[SFTphotography]

I really hope Pentax sees this as an opportunity to go directly to 645 full frame with the 150mpx sensor. To overcome potential lens issues they can try a deal with Topaz to embed some of their products into the camera's processing.

The 645 full frame 150mpx is an open market waiting for a low cost player.

I'm not sure if Fuji's lenses and camera throat size can go full frame. If nor, then Pentax wild have a real opportunity here.

Just my ten cents...

I suspect that full frame sensor is exclusive to Hasselblad and Phase. The digital 645 were crop MF - both of them. Perhaps there is scope for two MF camera's in the Pentax range - the crop 100mp and the full 150mp - with pricing to match.

The GFX lenses are designed around the 44x33 sensor - not the large one.

The 100mp Sony crop MF sensor is there - and relatively inexpensive compared to the full MF 150mp. Pentax don't need to do a huge amount of work here to make a compelling, SLR alternative to the Fuji and could do this along side developing the full frame successor to the K1. Common AF modules, image processing engines etc - buffers to have a semblance of economies of scale. The K1 is getting on a bit - as is the 645z - why not base them around the 60mp 35mm sensor and 100mp 44x33 sensor and share things like AF systems.

Some redesign of some of the lenses would be in order, and again, not that hard to do.

---------- Post added 01-28-21 at 05:43 AM ----------

Are you ready to pay >20K€ for this ? That would be the low cost of such a camera I think. No idea how the lenses would deal with such a sensor (sensor size + resolution)

No - I am happier paying 5k for a body - not over 20k. Some are though.

How len's cope is dependent on pixel pitch - rather than outright resolution.

The 50mp 44x33 set of up the 645z has quite a generous pixel pitch - so the older lenses don't have to work too hard to resolve them. That's why a 645z will produce clearer, sharper images, than a 5dsr - because the pixel pitch is more generous. The 100mp 44x33 has a very tight pixel pitch - similar to that of the Sony A7R4 - I doubt the older film era lens would really work so well on such a fine pixel pitch. Maybe the 28-45 and 90mm macro would cope - but I suspect the older film era stuff like the 80-160 and 45-85 would fall apart. Interesting Fuji GFX lens were designed around the 50mp sensor - not the finer pitch of the 100mp - I expect some new releases there soon

The 150mp full frame medium format camera has a much larger pixel pitch so the lens won't have to work as hard - so you can use old Hassleblad film era lens and they'll be fine.


Another way to look at is take a 50inch HD TV - up close your eyes can easily see the pixels. Take an 8k 50 inch TV - same size - much smaller pixels - it will be harder to see them up close.

It's the same with MP's and lenses - it's the actual size of each photosite which is important. In the present 645z these are quite larger pixels - similar to than of the 5dmk4 - and larger than the ones that make up the K1 35mm SLR.

[SylvainB]

I suspect that full frame sensor is exclusive to Hasselblad and Phase. The digital 645 were crop MF - both of them. Perhaps there is scope for two MF camera's in the Pentax range - the crop 100mp and the full 150mp - with pricing to match.

The GFX lenses are designed around the 44x33 sensor - not the large one.

The 100mp Sony crop MF sensor is there - and relatively inexpensive compared to the full MF 150mp. Pentax don't need to do a huge amount of work here to make a compelling, SLR alternative to the Fuji and could do this along side developing the full frame successor to the K1. Common AF modules, image processing engines etc - buffers to have a semblance of economies of scale. The K1 is getting on a bit - as is the 645z - why not base them around the 60mp 35mm sensor and 100mp 44x33 sensor and share things like AF systems.

Some redesign of some of the lenses would be in order, and again, not that hard to do.[COLOR="Silver"]

Not exclusive to anyone, Pentax had signed a development agreement with Sony when the 54x40mm 100MP sensor was released. They never went further, but they had access to it.
And a new 645 would be based on the K3-III electronics, logically (just as the 645Z was based on the up-to-date APS-C camera at the time).

No - I am happier paying 5k for a body - not over 20k. Some are though.

How len's cope is dependent on pixel pitch - rather than outright resolution.

The 50mp 44x33 set of up the 645z has quite a generous pixel pitch - so the older lenses don't have to work too hard to resolve them. That's why a 645z will produce clearer, sharper images, than a 5dsr - because the pixel pitch is more generous. The 100mp 44x33 has a very tight pixel pitch - similar to that of the Sony A7R4 - I doubt the older film era lens would really work so well on such a fine pixel pitch. Maybe the 28-45 and 90mm macro would cope - but I suspect the older film era stuff like the 80-160 and 45-85 would fall apart. Interesting Fuji GFX lens were designed around the 50mp sensor - not the finer pitch of the 100mp - I expect some new releases there soon

The 150mp full frame medium format camera has a much larger pixel pitch so the lens won't have to work as hard - so you can use old Hassleblad film era lens and they'll be fine.

I am aware of this, but compare the pixel pitch of 33x44mm 100MP sensor and 40x54mm 150MP... What is your conclusion ?
And Fuji communicated from the beginning that their lenses were designed to work with 100MP sensors, not limited to 50MP... so no need to update anything
(of course, it is their commercial communication, nobody has to believe them without checking personnally).
And Hasselblad film era lenses (V family) cannot compete against their HC lenses on 40x54mm sensor. They have their character, they can be pleasant, but they are not at the same level.

[whwang]

I think the minimum Pentax needs to do is to put the 100MP 44x33 sensor in their 645 body and update the sensor-related performance (AF, video, 16bit etc).

Lens wise, the few Pentax 645 lenses I had tried are all extremely sharp in the frame center. They out-resolve the 50MP 44x33 sensor at the center, and they should have no problems on a 100MP one. The unfortunate part is that they are lousy in the corners. I can't say the GFX lenses are sharper in the center, but the GFX lenses definitely generate more uniform image quality over the 44x33 frame.

BTW, I am an astropgotographer. My targets are points all over the field, which are highly demanding for image resolution. I can't comments on other kinds of lens performance, like rendering, bokeh etc.

[repaap]

I think that Ricoh said about this Fujifilm thing that it is good when 645(even cropped) has more interest and clients. If I remember it correctly, they did make splash with 645 D/Z just because of what Fuji is doing now. Fuji has no mirror, but that has been trend later. I do wonder what this actually means. Approach from Fuji is still quite different to Pentax legacy 645.

And that alone might draw people in favour of something. I do suppose that Ricoh will keep the mirror. And the form. This updated to 150mp sensor could do the absolute wow factor. Not saying that having the same 102BSI would be worse. Especially if that new AF system they have been working with will prove to be very effective. There are still many who shoot 645 and or 6X7 old Pentax film cameras.

The thing is. Will they go against(they said already not going to compete with price) GFX100s? And the trend of fast(MF) lenses. Or going a step higher to get very good image quality. Not sure of which lenses would be copactible with bigger sensor? DFA lenses? 25(discontinued, but could come back?) 35, 55, 90? And ofcourse many old lenses like 75,120,150 and zooms could be updated. 6x7 lenses should be up to it for sure.

So in that way I’d say going ’against’ Fuji would be very challenging to do. Not impossible but still a challenge.
They could go also higher while they are at there. If they just will update sensor to 102 and put latest of tech in(quite good upgrade too with accelerator chip and all) this could create some buzz. And I could buy that old new in box 645 for 2000€ if mjkoski won’t catch it before me.

[texandrews]

I think that Ricoh said about this Fujifilm thing that it is good when 645(even cropped) has more interest and clients. If I remember it correctly, they did make splash with 645 D/Z just because of what Fuji is doing now. Fuji has no mirror, but that has been trend later. I do wonder what this actually means. Approach from Fuji is still quite different to Pentax legacy 645.

And that alone might draw people in favour of something. I do suppose that Ricoh will keep the mirror. And the form. This updated to 150mp sensor could do the absolute wow factor. Not saying that having the same 102BSI would be worse. Especially if that new AF system they have been working with will prove to be very effective. There are still many who shoot 645 and or 6X7 old Pentax film cameras.

The thing is. Will they go against(they said already not going to compete with price) GFX100s? And the trend of fast(MF) lenses. Or going a step higher to get very good image quality. Not sure of which lenses would be copactible with bigger sensor? DFA lenses? 25(discontinued, but could come back?) 35, 55, 90? And ofcourse many old lenses like 75,120,150 and zooms could be updated. 6x7 lenses should be up to it for sure.

So in that way I’d say going ’against’ Fuji would be very challenging to do. Not impossible but still a challenge.
They could go also higher while they are at there. If they just will update sensor to 102 and put latest of tech in(quite good upgrade too with accelerator chip and all) this could create some buzz. And I could buy that old new in box 645 for 2000€ if mjkoski won’t catch it before me.

The one thing I'm thinking is that we seem to always see this through a lens of competition to the death. I'm not sure that's wise or correct. It seems to me that there's space here for multiple options. New Phase stuff is really not an option for all but the very richest/most billables pros and a nano percentage of amateurs. It is geared far more to institutions as far as I can see. So, then there's Hassy and Fuji. I think there's enough space for Pentax and these 2, and I think Hassy has more to worry about than Pentax. Part of the reason for this is the enthusiast market, in which buyers have been slowly inured to higher prices (insert frogs in boiling water metaphor here)


This is not like the situation we had in the aughts with a whole herd of camera makers vying for some slice of a still brand new market, nor is it like the somewhat still crowded(for 2021) sub FF market.

[repaap]

The one thing I'm thinking is that we seem to always see this through a lens of competition to the death. I'm not sure that's wise or correct. It seems to me that there's space here for multiple options. New Phase stuff is really not an option for all but the very richest/most billables pros and a nano percentage of amateurs. It is geared far more to institutions as far as I can see. So, then there's Hassy and Fuji. I think there's enough space for Pentax and these 2, and I think Hassy has more to worry about than Pentax. Part of the reason for this is the enthusiast market, in which buyers have been slowly inured to higher prices (insert frogs in boiling water metaphor here)


This is not like the situation we had in the aughts with a whole herd of camera makers vying for some slice of a still brand new market, nor is it like the somewhat still crowded(for 2021) sub FF market.

This is very true. And it is quite possible that the next Pentax 645 is going to have mirror also. So that alone will be actually one thing what will set them apart from other 2 options. It is a good thing.

[SFTphotography]

This is very true. And it is quite possible that the next Pentax 645 is going to have mirror also. So that alone will be actually one thing what will set them apart from other 2 options. It is a good thing.

Pentax's mission statement is "we believe in SLR photography".

It will be a big DSLR.

[MJKoski]

Just slap in the big MF sensor (54mm wide variant) and sell it for 10 000$. This will cause havoc in current state of subframe digital "MF".