Pentax 645Z next model

normhead · 02-05-2021, 07:23 AM

The 645 production was jump started by the availably of the sensor. It jumped to the head of the line. Clearly there isn't another sensor of interest to come along since.

MJKoski · 02-05-2021, 07:37 AM - **1 Like**

The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR?

That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update.

But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images.

repaap · 02-05-2021, 08:14 AM

Main reason why they have not proceeded would be that they have been concentrated in other things now. And to me it looks that this work is about to be done. One more DFA* lens and prosumer Zoom. Then it is 645 line turn.

SFTphotography · 02-06-2021, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by MJKoski

The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR?

That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update.

But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images.

Could the 100mp PDAF sensor not be modified to have the PDAF on sensor removed. I believe ever 1 in 18 lines in the sensor has these pdaf points but it's superfluous in an SLR system

**Rondec** · 02-06-2021, 04:24 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by MJKoski

The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR?

That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update.

But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images.

I really think most of the delays have been updating their processing engine. PRIME was getting really old and couldn't handle 4K video, bigger buffers, etc. Hopefully now that they have the basics done with the K-3 III they can look at updating the K-1 and 645z. It will certainly take some work, but we've seen before that Pentax is quick to share tech across camera bodies.

SFTphotography · 02-06-2021, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by wa2kqy

Hi,

This is always possible of course. Sony isn't going to say until they are ready. But, I suspect the choices will continue to be either the 100 or the 150 for some time. Me? I'm rooting for the 150 for Pentax. That gives the market another choice as opposed to the Same Thing Only Different we had between the 645z and the 50s/r offerings.

Stan

I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade.

The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor.

It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera.

grantsarichev · 02-06-2021, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by SFTphotography

I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade.

The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor.

It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera.

"I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor". And why?

SFTphotography · 02-06-2021, 04:57 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by grantsarichev

"I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor". And why?

Google PDAF striping and banding.

In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it.

I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor.

texandrews · 02-06-2021, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I really think most of the delays have been updating their processing engine. PRIME was getting really old and couldn't handle 4K video, bigger buffers, etc. Hopefully now that they have the basics done with the K-3 III they can look at updating the K-1 and 645z. It will certainly take some work, but we've seen before that Pentax is quick to share tech across camera bodies.

I hadn't thought of that, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by SFTphotography

I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade.

My jury is out on 150. 100 would actually be excellent in either the current physical size sensor or a larger one. It would serve my professional needs in a more practical way most likely---although the 150 would be a selling point for my contracting, and would be a boon for my artwork. Might also be the last camera I would ever need.

Quote:

The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor.

It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera.

I agree with all of that, and it could be that because the sensor already is being manufactured, Pentax could stay in line with Fuji on the pricing side of things.

grantsarichev · 02-06-2021, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by texandrews

I hadn't thought of that, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head.

My jury is out on 150. 100 would actually be excellent in either the current physical size sensor or a larger one. It would serve my professional needs in a more practical way most likely---although the 150 would be a selling point for my contracting, and would be a boon for my artwork. Might also be the last camera I would ever need.I agree with all of that, and it could be that because the sensor already is being manufactured, Pentax could stay in line with Fuji on the pricing side of things.

Buttt when? )))))Its number one quesrtion

---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:04 PM ----------

Originally posted by SFTphotography

Google PDAF striping and banding.

In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it.

I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor.

Thanks!

---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:05 PM ----------

Originally posted by SFTphotography

Google PDAF striping and banding.

In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it.

I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor.

according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem

repaap · 02-07-2021, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by grantsarichev

Buttt when? )))))Its number one quesrtion

---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:04 PM ----------

Thanks!

---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:05 PM ----------

according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem

I did see that and the other problem occurring because of short flange if you shoot towards bright light, like sun. In many instances it should not be problem thou.

MJKoski · 02-07-2021, 04:40 AM - **1 Like**

Jim Kasson has tested PDAF banding on GFX100 in his 14bit vs. 16bit comparison. It looks horrible and completely ruins any gains the 16bit mode might have.

Nikon and Fuji are not able to get it right. Sony has succeeded.

biz-engineer · 02-07-2021, 06:30 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by MJKoski

Jim Kasson has tested PDAF banding on GFX100 in his 14bit vs. 16bit comparison. It looks horrible and completely ruins any gains the 16bit mode might have.Nikon and Fuji are not able to get it right. Sony has succeeded.

Banding becomes visible when pulling shadows 5 stops. I never do this in my photographs. I'd be more concerned with quality of lenses, and to be honest, I think the reputation of Fuji lenses is totally made up. The reality is that Fuji GF lenses aren't as good as full frame lenses that cost half as much. At 100% zoom, that GF32-64 doesn't even come close to the Pentax 28-105 kit, which IMO is a shame.

Originally posted by grantsarichev

according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem

Banding is due to PDAF cells having noise profile different from adjacent full cells. In order to mask the PDAF pattern, they just fake PDAF pixels by replacing them with the nearest neighbor pixel in the image. Banding is never a problem is real life image, it's only a pixel peeper's problem in internet forums.

---------- Post added 07-02-21 at 14:37 ----------

As a matter of fact, camera manufacturers make new cameras or new lenses based on projected business figures. We just don't know because we don't have the figures that Ricoh have in their hands to decide if they'll extend the life cycle of a camera system or not. So, it's not possible to know with certainty what Ricoh will do of their Pentax 645 line in the future. As Ricoh German product manager said in last video, the market went from 120Million total in 2011 to 15Million in 2020, the market is almost 10 times smaller now, that alone will strongly impact decisions to continue or discontinue certain product lines. As a user , we don't know.

MJKoski · 02-07-2021, 08:07 AM

That is not how it is. Cheapest GF50 exceeds resolution of each single shot frame I have ever taken with a single shot FF camera. D850 & 500/4 on tripod does not the pure resolving power.

Buy your gfx before throwing such stuff.

And pdaf striping does not require pushing. Only hard contrast.

**SteveinSLC** · 02-07-2021, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by MJKoski

That is not how it is. Cheapest GF50 exceeds resolution of each single shot frame I have ever taken with a single shot FF camera. D850 & 500/4 on tripod does not the pure resolving power.

Buy your gfx before throwing such stuff.

And pdaf striping does not require pushing. Only hard contrast.

Well, the A7R4 has more MP on a smaller surface. So at least in theory would have significantly better resolution than a 50MP MF sensor. The MF sensor might have other advantages, but theoretical resolving capability wouldn't be one of them.

Relative to Pentax, would the existing lenses be able to keep up with a 150MP sensor? If not, what's the point? Pentax pretty clearly doesn't have the resources to build a whole new set of MF lenses that would only sell in very small quantities.

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02-05-2021, 07:23 AM	#151
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	The 645 production was jump started by the availably of the sensor. It jumped to the head of the line. Clearly there isn't another sensor of interest to come along since.

02-05-2021, 07:37 AM - 1 Like	#152
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR? That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update. But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images.

02-05-2021, 08:14 AM	#153
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Main reason why they have not proceeded would be that they have been concentrated in other things now. And to me it looks that this work is about to be done. One more DFA* lens and prosumer Zoom. Then it is 645 line turn.

02-06-2021, 04:21 AM	#154
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by MJKoski The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR? That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update. But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images. Could the 100mp PDAF sensor not be modified to have the PDAF on sensor removed. I believe ever 1 in 18 lines in the sensor has these pdaf points but it's superfluous in an SLR system

02-06-2021, 04:24 AM - 3 Likes	#155
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by MJKoski The 100MP 44x33mm is ruined by PDAF-array. Why use such sensor with a DSLR? That is probably one reason why Pentax has not proceeded with an update. But the large variant 100MP should not be PDAF type. Maybe the unit price is too expensive so far. It would however result in that "medium format look". Now I do not see any "medium format look" in GFX 50R -images. I really think most of the delays have been updating their processing engine. PRIME was getting really old and couldn't handle 4K video, bigger buffers, etc. Hopefully now that they have the basics done with the K-3 III they can look at updating the K-1 and 645z. It will certainly take some work, but we've seen before that Pentax is quick to share tech across camera bodies.

02-06-2021, 04:26 AM	#156
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by wa2kqy Hi, This is always possible of course. Sony isn't going to say until they are ready. But, I suspect the choices will continue to be either the 100 or the 150 for some time. Me? I'm rooting for the 150 for Pentax. That gives the market another choice as opposed to the Same Thing Only Different we had between the 645z and the 50s/r offerings. Stan I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade. The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor. It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera.

02-06-2021, 04:37 AM	#157
grantsarichev New Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 20 Original Poster	Originally posted by SFTphotography I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade. The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor. It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera. "I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor". And why?

02-06-2021, 04:57 AM - 3 Likes	#158
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by grantsarichev "I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor". And why? Google PDAF striping and banding. In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it. I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor.

02-06-2021, 09:23 AM	#159
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,392	Originally posted by Rondec I really think most of the delays have been updating their processing engine. PRIME was getting really old and couldn't handle 4K video, bigger buffers, etc. Hopefully now that they have the basics done with the K-3 III they can look at updating the K-1 and 645z. It will certainly take some work, but we've seen before that Pentax is quick to share tech across camera bodies. I hadn't thought of that, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head. Originally posted by SFTphotography I wouldn't say no the 150 - and it won't have PDAF on the sensor as it was designed for SLR cameras...and who wouldn't want 150mp. I'd use my 50mp system for a half decade or so heavily - then upgrade. My jury is out on 150. 100 would actually be excellent in either the current physical size sensor or a larger one. It would serve my professional needs in a more practical way most likely---although the 150 would be a selling point for my contracting, and would be a boon for my artwork. Might also be the last camera I would ever need. Quote: The 100 is a natural thing as no pentax digital MF camera has had a sensor larger than 44x33 - and the form of the camera and lens line up is suitably different to Fuji's to present a choice to consumers. I'd hope though they wouldn't put the phase detect on the sensor. It seems to me Fuji are pricing quite aggressively. £5500 doesn't seem terrible for a 100mp camera. I agree with all of that, and it could be that because the sensor already is being manufactured, Pentax could stay in line with Fuji on the pricing side of things.

02-06-2021, 06:02 PM	#160
grantsarichev New Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Posts: 20 Original Poster	Originally posted by texandrews I hadn't thought of that, but I think you may have hit the nail on the head. My jury is out on 150. 100 would actually be excellent in either the current physical size sensor or a larger one. It would serve my professional needs in a more practical way most likely---although the 150 would be a selling point for my contracting, and would be a boon for my artwork. Might also be the last camera I would ever need.I agree with all of that, and it could be that because the sensor already is being manufactured, Pentax could stay in line with Fuji on the pricing side of things. Buttt when? )))))Its number one quesrtion ---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:04 PM ---------- Originally posted by SFTphotography Google PDAF striping and banding. In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it. I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor. Thanks! ---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:05 PM ---------- Originally posted by SFTphotography Google PDAF striping and banding. In certain conditions light can reflect off the phase detect points on the sensor creating stripes in the images - and if the cameras image engine can compensate for this it can create banding in the shadow areas. The Z7i and A7RIII are bad for it. I wouldn't want the phase detect system onto the sensor. according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem

02-07-2021, 12:35 AM	#161
repaap Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2010 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,242	Originally posted by grantsarichev Buttt when? )))))Its number one quesrtion ---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:04 PM ---------- Thanks! ---------- Post added 02-06-21 at 07:05 PM ---------- according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem I did see that and the other problem occurring because of short flange if you shoot towards bright light, like sun. In many instances it should not be problem thou.

02-07-2021, 04:40 AM - 1 Like	#162
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	Jim Kasson has tested PDAF banding on GFX100 in his 14bit vs. 16bit comparison. It looks horrible and completely ruins any gains the 16bit mode might have. Nikon and Fuji are not able to get it right. Sony has succeeded.

02-07-2021, 06:30 AM - 2 Likes	#163
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,232	Originally posted by MJKoski Jim Kasson has tested PDAF banding on GFX100 in his 14bit vs. 16bit comparison. It looks horrible and completely ruins any gains the 16bit mode might have.Nikon and Fuji are not able to get it right. Sony has succeeded. Banding becomes visible when pulling shadows 5 stops. I never do this in my photographs. I'd be more concerned with quality of lenses, and to be honest, I think the reputation of Fuji lenses is totally made up. The reality is that Fuji GF lenses aren't as good as full frame lenses that cost half as much. At 100% zoom, that GF32-64 doesn't even come close to the Pentax 28-105 kit, which IMO is a shame. Originally posted by grantsarichev according to reviews, the gfx 100 somehow solves this problem Banding is due to PDAF cells having noise profile different from adjacent full cells. In order to mask the PDAF pattern, they just fake PDAF pixels by replacing them with the nearest neighbor pixel in the image. Banding is never a problem is real life image, it's only a pixel peeper's problem in internet forums. ---------- Post added 07-02-21 at 14:37 ---------- As a matter of fact, camera manufacturers make new cameras or new lenses based on projected business figures. We just don't know because we don't have the figures that Ricoh have in their hands to decide if they'll extend the life cycle of a camera system or not. So, it's not possible to know with certainty what Ricoh will do of their Pentax 645 line in the future. As Ricoh German product manager said in last video, the market went from 120Million total in 2011 to 15Million in 2020, the market is almost 10 times smaller now, that alone will strongly impact decisions to continue or discontinue certain product lines. As a user , we don't know.

02-07-2021, 08:07 AM	#164
MJKoski Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 1,784	That is not how it is. Cheapest GF50 exceeds resolution of each single shot frame I have ever taken with a single shot FF camera. D850 & 500/4 on tripod does not the pure resolving power. Buy your gfx before throwing such stuff. And pdaf striping does not require pushing. Only hard contrast.

02-07-2021, 09:15 AM	#165
SteveinSLC Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 568	Originally posted by MJKoski That is not how it is. Cheapest GF50 exceeds resolution of each single shot frame I have ever taken with a single shot FF camera. D850 & 500/4 on tripod does not the pure resolving power. Buy your gfx before throwing such stuff. And pdaf striping does not require pushing. Only hard contrast. Well, the A7R4 has more MP on a smaller surface. So at least in theory would have significantly better resolution than a 50MP MF sensor. The MF sensor might have other advantages, but theoretical resolving capability wouldn't be one of them. Relative to Pentax, would the existing lenses be able to keep up with a 150MP sensor? If not, what's the point? Pentax pretty clearly doesn't have the resources to build a whole new set of MF lenses that would only sell in very small quantities.