[barondla]

I convert 645Z PEF Raw files to 8 bit Tiff and process them in Photoshop Elements 11. PSE 11 can't handle 16 bit files. So what are these 645Z files missing at 8 bit? Color? dynamic range? Will it show up on forums or only when printed?

PSE 2020 is supposed to handle 16 bit files. Unfortunately, it won't work with my Windows 7 desktop. So a new computer is probably on the horizon.

Thanks,
barondla

[clackers]

Yeah, I think you're letting your camera down there, Barondla. Use different software if you have to, but you don't want the 645Z's great dynamic range getting butchered during some file conversion!

[BigMackCam]

There's at least a couple of key considerations here...

Firstly, by converting PEF files to TIFF you're throwing away information in crushed shadows and blown highlights such that it's no longer recoverable in post-processing, much as if you'd shot JPEG instead of raw. Secondly, with only eight bits you're significantly reducing the number of colours and tones represented. In addition to limiting the wonderful, subtle tonal variations captured by your camera, this can result in banding where colour gradations exist in your image (e.g. skin tones, deep blue skies at dusk, etc.) even before any post-processing work, but especially when you begin to apply adjustments to contrast, tone curves and the like. Ideally, you want to maintain or exceed the bit depth of the original raw image throughout your post-processing workflow until your final export to JPEG for forum and other use.

Have you tried RawTherapee? I don't know about the latest versions, but it used to be a great choice for lower-power hardware. I'm not sure if it will run on Windows 7, though... but it might be worth giving it a shot. Regardless, I'd recommend an upgrade to your PC and operating system. With such an incredible camera, you want a machine that's capable of running a decent raw development tool. You don't necessarily need the latest, greatest, whizz-bang PC; just something with a decent multi-core CPU and a reasonable amount of RAM (8GB minimum, the more the better)... ideally a basic dedicated GPU... and running Windows 10. I have a few PCs for different purposes, and even my eight-year-old HP ENVY laptop with i7-4700MQ processor is more than capable for running any raw tool I've tried, and with decent performance.

[pschlute]

Yes general advice is to always work in a wide colour space and 16 bit until you have finished all editing. I create 16 bit TIFFs from the raw file and work in AdobeRGB until I am ready to convert to JPEG.

Have you considered the Adobe Photography plan ? You get Photoshop/Lightroom and your own website.

[TDvN57]

I convert 645Z PEF Raw files to 8 bit Tiff and process them in Photoshop Elements 11. PSE 11 can't handle 16 bit files. So what are these 645Z files missing at 8 bit? Color? dynamic range? Will it show up on forums or only when printed?

PSE 2020 is supposed to handle 16 bit files. Unfortunately, it won't work with my Windows 7 desktop. So a new computer is probably on the horizon.

Thanks,
barondla

In my opinion you won't loose anything unless you do extensive editing. In PS environment 8bit means 8bit per channel x 3 channels = 24 bit colour. The camera shoots in 14 bit total. Switching to 16 bit per channel in PS you mostly avoid rounding errors from the editing accumulating into the original14bit depth. At 8bit x 3 channels (RGB) = 24 bits you have some leeway for editing, but extensive editing and will cause rounding errors to creep into the original quality. Anyway that is how I came to understand it when I did a similar fact search, some time ago.

I have never used PSE, but in ACR you should be able to edit the DNG raw file, then jump directly into PS, not sure if it also applies to PSE.

[BigMackCam]

In PS environment 8bit means 8bit per channel x 3 channels = 24 bit colour.

True - but whilst that sounds like a lot, it only allows for 256 tonal variations per individual colour, hence why banding can occur in gradations or other areas with multiple tones of the same colour. 16-bit processing, by comparison, allows for 65,536 tonal variations per colour, allowing for much smoother tonal transitions.

DxOMark's colour sensitivity score for the 645Z is 26 bits at base ISO, which - as with all cameras - is way less than you might expect given the 14-bit raw files, but considerably more than a 24-bit colour space can represent. Maintaining the highest possible bit depth throughout the workflow prior to final export ensures the best possible colour and tonal reproduction, and reduces the impact of the rounding you refer to...

[Ed Hurst]

For what it's worth, I always do quite a bit of editing on the RAW file in ACR, then work in full resolution 16-bit TIFFs (in Adobe RGB) throughout the remainder of the editing process to retain as much quality as I can, then finally produce a smaller, 8-bit file in sRGB for web use - after all other edits have been done. Even with my 4000-file star trail shots, every single file is edited and stacked this way.

[TDvN57]

True - but whilst that sounds like a lot, it only allows for 256 tonal variations per individual colour, hence why banding can occur in gradations or other areas with multiple tones of the same colour. 16-bit processing, by comparison, allows for 65,536 tonal variations per colour, allowing for much smoother tonal transitions.

DxOMark's colour sensitivity score for the 645Z is 26 bits at base ISO, which - as with all cameras - is way less than you might expect given the 14-bit raw files, but considerably more than a 24-bit colour space can represent. Maintaining the highest possible bit depth throughout the workflow prior to final export ensures the best possible colour and tonal reproduction, and reduces the impact of the rounding you refer to...

Thanks Mike, I'm always glad to learn new stuff :-)

In ACR I think it will accept any bit depth and colour space you give it as long as you can set it in the preferences. I personally avoid tiff mainly because of ignorance and a suspicion about too many conversions in the overall workflow causes IQ loss. I set my camera to DNG file format, Adobe RGB and ACR to match. In ACR after editing I select "Open Object" which pushes the DNG as a smart object into PS. I even found Sequator will stack DNG files. I am just not sure if it can read all the adjustments. If not you have no option but to go to tiff for Sequator.

I once played around with Pro Photo RGB and it is really nice, but disappointing when you have to convert back to Adobe RGB or sRGB. So I locked in on Adobe RGB. My printer defaults to sRGB, but if you select Photoshop to manage colours it seems to work OK with Adobe RGB. For jpg's I read that as long as you export the color profile embedded into the jpg, modern browsers will apply it. Failing that, they may do anything from sRGB or worse. I could not confirm the Adobe suite to be consistent in exporting the colour profiles and I suspect some export routines do it and others don't.

[itshimitis]

I import at 16 bit into Photoshop from Lightroom and only post editing do I export an 8 bit Tiff file. Years ago I used to export to highest quality jpg after editing. That was before i used Lightroom to keep the unedited and edited files together.

[pschlute]

For jpg's I read that as long as you export the color profile embedded into the jpg, modern browsers will apply it.

Most modern browsers do have a degree of colour management when displaying a tagged ( eg AdobeRGB) image. However, as most folk viewing on those browsers wont be using a wide gamut monitor, you cannot be sure what colours they will be looking at.

[BarryE]

Processing 645 files in 8-bit, rather than 16-bit must be like buying a Ferrari and never getting out of 2nd gear or driving out of town. Stay in 16-bit for as long as possible in uncompressed PDF/TIFF format, then re-purpose for the required output (bit depth, colour space, sharpening, print etc). Keep the 16-bit file as the master/processed file.

Some might add that prophoto color space is better than Adobe1998, which it is. But, it does come with many issues that require more colour management understanding.

Adobe1998 with a wide gamut, hardware calibrated monitor in 16-bit. Then the 645 will be free to shine. I'm envious ...

[bwgv001]

rawtherapee: RawTherapee - Home
ART: agriggio / ART / wiki / Home ? Bitbucket

both available for Mac and Windows

[kaseki]

Both Darktable and RawTherapee can import PEF files. As I understand it, edits go into a "sidecar" file that can be applied to the internal representation of the PEF file. This sidecar file is initially color balanced by the software using whatever it thinks Pentax did to the raw image to generate the internal thumbnail jpegs buried in the PEF files. The PEF file as modified by the sidecar file can then be exported in whatever form one wishes. The original PEF file remains intact.

[MossyRocks]

I don't know about the latest versions, but it used to be a great choice for lower-power hardware. I'm not sure if it will run on Windows 7, though... but it might be worth giving it a shot.

I've been using RawTherapee for a while now. I use to run it on windows 7 (up until the end of last year) but now run it on Linux. It is rather memory hungry but no more so than other image editing software. There are lots of knobs to turn and when you export out of it it can do 16bpc int tiff no problem. It also will output 16bpc float, 32bpc int, and 32bpc float tiff images as well. The others are useful if you are doing some more interesting computational photography where you are stacking hundreds to thousands of images.

For an example of what can be accomplished with practice here is a single 20s image I processed using RawTherapee and GIMP of the Andromeda galaxy. I go back and forth between them as needed and for this image I did a lot of initial editing in RawTherapee for color general contrast, and initial noise reduction, then a bunch of levels and curves adjustments in GIMP, then back into RawTherapee to do some final cleanup, wavelet editing, and noise reduction.

Unlike GIMP or Photoshop edits made in RawTherapee are not final or destructive so if things go horribly I just delete the .pp3 file it created for the image which resets everything.

[barondla]

I've been using RawTherapee for a while now. I use to run it on windows 7 (up until the end of last year) but now run it on Linux. It is rather memory hungry but no more so than other image editing software. There are lots of knobs to turn and when you export out of it it can do 16bpc int tiff no problem. It also will output 16bpc float, 32bpc int, and 32bpc float tiff images as well. The others are useful if you are doing some more interesting computational photography where you are stacking hundreds to thousands of images.

For an example of what can be accomplished with practice here is a single 20s image I processed using RawTherapee and GIMP of the Andromeda galaxy. I go back and forth between them as needed and for this image I did a lot of initial editing in RawTherapee for color general contrast, and initial noise reduction, then a bunch of levels and curves adjustments in GIMP, then back into RawTherapee to do some final cleanup, wavelet editing, and noise reduction.

Unlike GIMP or Photoshop edits made in RawTherapee are not final or destructive so if things go horribly I just delete the .pp3 file it created for the image which resets everything.

Spectacular Andromeda image. Wouldn't have guessed it's a single image. Well done.

Thanks for sharing,
barondla