Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-29-2020, 10:35 AM   #1
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,711
645 Panorama recommendations.

Would like to try a few panoramas. What lens is the best choice for easy stitching? Some people use a bracket for panos. Is this required with the 645Z? If so who makes a bracket big enough for the Z? Last question...for now, what post processing program is the easiest?

Thanks,
barondla

11-29-2020, 11:21 AM - 1 Like   #2
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Idaho
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,360
I have done panoramas in the past using layers and soft erasures with limited success. Just recently I had a real good three shot image I wanted to stitch and tried Hugin. I was amazed at the results given that my three shots weren't matched that well and trying it the old way just led to frustration. Hugin is free and fairly easy to use. It has lots of capability, much of which I haven't explored yet. It runs on most computers and isn't cloud based.

To get it right with any camera (645 included), a tripod is recommended. The position of the camera depends on the lens used and the nodal point of the lens should be a point on the vertical rotation axis. If you have a mount (bracket) which allows the camera/lens to slide forward and backward, this allows you to align the nodal point. It is correctly aligned if near and far objects have minimal shift between a center position and an edge position in two test shots (shoot an image with a near and far object in the center and then rotate the tripod head to position the same two objects at the edge and shoot another shot). The point is to reduce parallax issues when rotating the tripod head to get the individual images which are going to be stitched. You can buy panorama mounts but they are pretty easy to build yourself if you are handy with basic construction. They're a lot of DIY articles out there and I think I've seen some in this forum. A panoramic mount isn't absolutely necessary for many shots, but it makes aligning a lot better and easier.

I usually rotate the tripod head between shots no more that half the frame (an object at the center is moved no further than the right or left edge of the frame). Normal lenses stitch better than wide angle lenses because of lens distortion in the latter. Exposures should be matched, so manual exposure usually works best for me (once a good compromise is found for all images involved).

Hope that gives you some starting info and helps.

Last edited by Bob 256; 11-29-2020 at 12:25 PM.
11-29-2020, 11:56 AM - 1 Like   #3
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Alex645's Avatar

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Kaneohe, HI
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,526
QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Would like to try a few panoramas. What lens is the best choice for easy stitching? Some people use a bracket for panos. Is this required with the 645Z? If so who makes a bracket big enough for the Z? Last question...for now, what post processing program is the easiest?
Lens? I would recommend the widest lens that has as little distortion as possible such as a 55mm prime on the 645Z. 75mm would also work, but would require more shots and stitching. Avoid using a polarizer as different angles on the sky are going to create a consistency issue.

A bracket is not required but a good tripod head with degree markings helps. Use your 645Z side tripod socket to shoot vertical and pan the tripod for your sequence.

Whenever I've tried to use an "easy" post processing engine, I've found it produces something that is less than optimal and by the time I try to improve it, I might as well have done it manually on Photoshop to get it nearly perfect. @Bob256 likes HugIn, and since it's free, no harm in trying that.

But if HugIn doesn't cut it for you and Adobe is not in your budget, you may want to try Serif PanoramaPlus x4 for $18.
Serif PanoramaPlus X4 (Download) PNPX4USESD B&H Photo Video
11-29-2020, 12:09 PM - 1 Like   #4
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,698
QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Would like to try a few panoramas. What lens is the best choice for easy stitching?
Any lens will do. The wider the lens the more important foreground to anchor the image. You can go as wide or as long as you want. Just overlap by about a third to a quarter of a frame. The stitching software is so good these days, that lenses do not matter given a reasonable amount of overlap. 10 to 20% is usually the minimum.
QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Some people use a bracket for panos. Is this required with the 645Z? If so who makes a bracket big enough for the Z?
I'm taking that you are asking about an L Bracket. An L Bracket is not necessary, since all 645 bodies have two tripod mount points - one on the side and one on the bottom. What you need is at least one flat plate that matches the clamp on your tripod head - two plates would be better if you didn't want to just move one around.

QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Last question...for now, what post processing program is the easiest?
Any software supporting stitching is fine. Microsoft ICE is good and free. ICE takes DNG as raw file along with TIFF so that you can preserve all of your details. The new versions of lightroom supports stitching (and HDR if you do any bracketing).Also take a look at this youtube channel. The gentleman is a Scot down in New Zealand doing fine art large format commercial photography, and essentially does panos 90% of the time with his 645Z. He prints very large - 5 feet along the long side. He uses a number of lenses, but most are not wide angle - since he wants the greatest amount of detail and the sensor is large to begin with. Usually shoots 2 or 3 frames. He does not talk you through the steps. He is more interested in the time of day, sun angles, sky color, sea state, etc. and most of all, going out and enjoying yourself by having fun. But you can watch and see exactly what he does, and he just moves the camera on his tripod. He does use a nodal rail, but that's not even that necessary (if you use somewhat longer - normal lenses).

He also likes to shoot long exposures to smooth out the seas, into a nice and flat smooth and soothing image.



Last edited by interested_observer; 11-29-2020 at 12:21 PM.
11-29-2020, 03:01 PM - 1 Like   #5
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
AggieDad's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Houston, TX
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,439
I see several recommendations for wider lenses. I will take the opposite view and recommend a longer lens if you are going to use a tripod.

A longer lens will give more detail and less distortion. But, of course, you will need more images - ergo the tripod. I also recommend using the camera in portrait mode. I also find it is a good rule to use a 1/3 to 1/2 overlap between images. Stitching software is looking to match common “control” points on the image and larger overlap increases the number of those points. You can see what happens with a lack of control points by taking a series of photos of a clear sky. The software will not be able to find matches to allow stitching the images.

I was going to mention Affinity for stitching, but it might be the same pano engine as in the Serif PanoramaPlus mentioned above as Serif is the publisher of Affinity. Either way, I find the Affinity stitcher finds control points that several other software programs seem to miss. Just this past week I stitched a 39 image (3 rows x 13 images) pano with Affinity.

For myself, I normally use either an 85mm or 100mm lens when on a tripod and a 50mm lens for handheld panos. Either way I try to have a 50% overlap.

Panos are great fun, And I wish success with your efforts.
11-29-2020, 03:55 PM - 1 Like   #6
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
jimpurcell's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Tucson
Photos: Albums
Posts: 90
I think the 645z works great with panos. Watch the weight. I tried early on to use gear meant for smaller cameras and was frustrated. I try very hard not to go wider than the 55mm. I am more consistent that way. The pano head I finally found is from Fanotec.com. I bought the M2 Giga. It is slower to set up than I would like but it seems to be rock solid. But I have seen earth shattering, fantastic panos shot with a 5 gallon pail turned over. Where there is a will, there is a way. Good luck.

Here is a pano stitched photo taken with the 645d.

The New McDonalds in HDR [Explored] | 4495 N Oracle Road, Tu? | Flickr

This one was an HDR taken with the 45mm.
11-29-2020, 04:31 PM - 3 Likes   #7
Pentaxian
cmohr's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,823
If you reeally want to get serious with Panos, a good Indexed rotator is a great tool. You can set the degrees of index from a few presets, you just rotate it till it clicks into the next point.

Sunwayfoto DDP-64M Indexing Rotator

11-29-2020, 10:33 PM - 1 Like   #8
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2016
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,990
I suggest using a lens only wide enough to get what you want in the panorama. That way, you get the most pixels in your image, as opposed to cropping later to get what you want and reducing the over-all resolution. But you might want to frame it slightly wider than you want, if you aren't using a special pano head and are jsut starting out, in case you have some inaccuracy.

I use a Mac, and like this program, DoubleTake. It doesn't have a lot of settings like some programs do, but has some options and usually gets it pretty right the first time.

The stuff about the nodal point is good if you want to get it really accurate, but if you are just starting out, it's easy to try it with a regular tripod setup or even handheld and get some familiarity with it.
11-30-2020, 10:04 AM - 1 Like   #9
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Idaho
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,360
Just another side note for you if you do your own printing, Red River Paper makes several surfaces in panoramic formats. There are two primary sizes (8.5x25 inches and 13x38 inches). You can use regular paper and cut it, of course, but these have saved me a lot of time and work great with my inkjet. For really wide panoramas, roll paper can be used and Red River has it in quite a few surfaces also.

Also, in case you don't do your own, Nations Photo Lab is one place which does panoramic printing on Kodak paper (there may be others), and you can upload your files to them for printing. They are limited to 300dpi and jpeg uploads however, whereas that isn't necessarily a limitation for your own (DIY) print shop if you have one.

No connections with either of these companies - just used their services and can recommend them.

With a 645, I'm sure you can get some outstanding prints.

https://www.redrivercatalog.com/shopbypapersize.html

https://www.nationsphotolab.com/prints.aspx

Last edited by Bob 256; 11-30-2020 at 10:11 AM.
11-30-2020, 10:35 AM   #10
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,711
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by cmohr Quote
If you reeally want to get serious with Panos, a good Indexed rotator is a great tool. You can set the degrees of index from a few presets, you just rotate it till it clicks into the next point.

Sunwayfoto DDP-64M Indexing Rotator
Didn't know this existed! It would speed up panos, especially in lowlight.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
I have done panoramas in the past using layers and soft erasures with limited success. Just recently I had a real good three shot image I wanted to stitch and tried Hugin. I was amazed at the results given that my three shots weren't matched that well and trying it the old way just led to frustration. Hugin is free and fairly easy to use. It has lots of capability, much of which I haven't explored yet. It runs on most computers and isn't cloud based.

To get it right with any camera (645 included), a tripod is recommended. The position of the camera depends on the lens used and the nodal point of the lens should be a point on the vertical rotation axis. If you have a mount (bracket) which allows the camera/lens to slide forward and backward, this allows you to align the nodal point. It is correctly aligned if near and far objects have minimal shift between a center position and an edge position in two test shots (shoot an image with a near and far object in the center and then rotate the tripod head to position the same two objects at the edge and shoot another shot). The point is to reduce parallax issues when rotating the tripod head to get the individual images which are going to be stitched. You can buy panorama mounts but they are pretty easy to build yourself if you are handy with basic construction. They're a lot of DIY articles out there and I think I've seen some in this forum. A panoramic mount isn't absolutely necessary for many shots, but it makes aligning a lot better and easier.

I usually rotate the tripod head between shots no more that half the frame (an object at the center is moved no further than the right or left edge of the frame). Normal lenses stitch better than wide angle lenses because of lens distortion in the latter. Exposures should be matched, so manual exposure usually works best for me (once a good compromise is found for all images involved).

Hope that gives you some starting info and helps.
Thanks for the tips.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:38 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Alex645 Quote
Lens? I would recommend the widest lens that has as little distortion as possible such as a 55mm prime on the 645Z. 75mm would also work, but would require more shots and stitching. Avoid using a polarizer as different angles on the sky are going to create a consistency issue.

A bracket is not required but a good tripod head with degree markings helps. Use your 645Z side tripod socket to shoot vertical and pan the tripod for your sequence.

Whenever I've tried to use an "easy" post processing engine, I've found it produces something that is less than optimal and by the time I try to improve it, I might as well have done it manually on Photoshop to get it nearly perfect. @Bob256 likes HugIn, and since it's free, no harm in trying that.

But if HugIn doesn't cut it for you and Adobe is not in your budget, you may want to try Serif PanoramaPlus x4 for $18.
Serif PanoramaPlus X4 (Download) PNPX4USESD B&H Photo Video
Thanks for the Buying suggestion. I've heard of it. Will check it out.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:39 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
Any lens will do. The wider the lens the more important foreground to anchor the image. You can go as wide or as long as you want. Just overlap by about a third to a quarter of a frame. The stitching software is so good these days, that lenses do not matter given a reasonable amount of overlap. 10 to 20% is usually the minimum.

I'm taking that you are asking about an L Bracket. An L Bracket is not necessary, since all 645 bodies have two tripod mount points - one on the side and one on the bottom. What you need is at least one flat plate that matches the clamp on your tripod head - two plates would be better if you didn't want to just move one around.



Any software supporting stitching is fine. Microsoft ICE is good and free. ICE takes DNG as raw file along with TIFF so that you can preserve all of your details. The new versions of lightroom supports stitching (and HDR if you do any bracketing).Also take a look at this youtube channel. The gentleman is a Scot down in New Zealand doing fine art large format commercial photography, and essentially does panos 90% of the time with his 645Z. He prints very large - 5 feet along the long side. He uses a number of lenses, but most are not wide angle - since he wants the greatest amount of detail and the sensor is large to begin with. Usually shoots 2 or 3 frames. He does not talk you through the steps. He is more interested in the time of day, sun angles, sky color, sea state, etc. and most of all, going out and enjoying yourself by having fun. But you can watch and see exactly what he does, and he just moves the camera on his tripod. He does use a nodal rail, but that's not even that necessary (if you use somewhat longer - normal lenses).

He also likes to shoot long exposures to smooth out the seas, into a nice and flat smooth and soothing image.
Thanks for the information and the links to Ewan's images.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:42 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by AggieDad Quote
I see several recommendations for wider lenses. I will take the opposite view and recommend a longer lens if you are going to use a tripod.

A longer lens will give more detail and less distortion. But, of course, you will need more images - ergo the tripod. I also recommend using the camera in portrait mode. I also find it is a good rule to use a 1/3 to 1/2 overlap between images. Stitching software is looking to match common “control” points on the image and larger overlap increases the number of those points. You can see what happens with a lack of control points by taking a series of photos of a clear sky. The software will not be able to find matches to allow stitching the images.

I was going to mention Affinity for stitching, but it might be the same pano engine as in the Serif PanoramaPlus mentioned above as Serif is the publisher of Affinity. Either way, I find the Affinity stitcher finds control points that several other software programs seem to miss. Just this past week I stitched a 39 image (3 rows x 13 images) pano with Affinity.

For myself, I normally use either an 85mm or 100mm lens when on a tripod and a 50mm lens for handheld panos. Either way I try to have a 50% overlap.

Panos are great fun, And I wish success with your efforts.
Good points about normal and tele lenses. Will also look at Affinity software. Thanks for the info.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:44 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jimpurcell Quote
I think the 645z works great with panos. Watch the weight. I tried early on to use gear meant for smaller cameras and was frustrated. I try very hard not to go wider than the 55mm. I am more consistent that way. The pano head I finally found is from Fanotec.com. I bought the M2 Giga. It is slower to set up than I would like but it seems to be rock solid. But I have seen earth shattering, fantastic panos shot with a 5 gallon pail turned over. Where there is a will, there is a way. Good luck.

Here is a pano stitched photo taken with the 645d.

The New McDonalds in HDR [Explored] | 4495 N Oracle Road, Tu? | Flickr

This one was an HDR taken with the 45mm.
Impressive McDonalds image. Panos at night have to be considerably tougher to pull off. Thanks for the pointers.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:47 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by leekil Quote
I suggest using a lens only wide enough to get what you want in the panorama. That way, you get the most pixels in your image, as opposed to cropping later to get what you want and reducing the over-all resolution. But you might want to frame it slightly wider than you want, if you aren't using a special pano head and are jsut starting out, in case you have some inaccuracy.

I use a Mac, and like this program, DoubleTake. It doesn't have a lot of settings like some programs do, but has some options and usually gets it pretty right the first time.

The stuff about the nodal point is good if you want to get it really accurate, but if you are just starting out, it's easy to try it with a regular tripod setup or even handheld and get some familiarity with it.
Great point about framing wider than needed. I tried a panos years ago and had to crop a fair amount to get straight edges. The shot worked but was weakened by the cropping.

---------- Post added 11-30-20 at 11:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Just another side note for you if you do your own printing, Red River Paper makes several surfaces in panoramic formats. There are two primary sizes (8.5x25 inches and 13x38 inches). You can use regular paper and cut it, of course, but these have saved me a lot of time and work great with my inkjet. For really wide panoramas, roll paper can be used and Red River has it in quite a few surfaces also.

Also, in case you don't do your own, Nations Photo Lab is one place which does panoramic printing on Kodak paper (there may be others), and you can upload your files to them for printing. They are limited to 300dpi and jpeg uploads however, whereas that isn't necessarily a limitation for your own (DIY) print shop if you have one.

No connections with either of these companies - just used their services and can recommend them.

With a 645, I'm sure you can get some outstanding prints.

Shop by Paper Sizes - Standard Photo Printing Sizes & More

Professional Prints - Photo Printing - Nations Photo Lab
Thanks for the Red River paper and Nations Photo Lab recommendations.

Thanks to everyone,
barondla
11-30-2020, 02:55 PM - 1 Like   #11
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,698
QuoteOriginally posted by cmohr Quote
If you reeally want to get serious with Panos, a good Indexed rotator is a great tool. You can set the degrees of index from a few presets, you just rotate it till it clicks into the next point.

Sunwayfoto DDP-64M Indexing Rotator
I've done a LOT of panos, and about 15 years ago, picked up a Nodal Ninja with a rotor base. I've been using it for Milky Way panos and it has worked very well, but in the dark I've always worried about crashing and burning things. So, I've gone to another stacking arrangement. A leveling base, my rotor, a Arca-Swiss clamp and then an elevation-tilt head. Then I see that this was written up here.... (just scroll down about half way to see the setup).Yes, I love the rotor - especially during night shooting. I've used this new setup (of repurposed stuff) and it works really well. After getting it together, I noted that the elevation head I used would not re-orient (only permitted a side to side roll), so with a nodal rail and another clamp - that solved the re-orientation problem.

This rotor setup in my opinion does beat a ball head. By separating the 3D controls, it provides a wider array of adjustments. I also tried a geared head, which worked well (with the NN on top of it), but the leveling base really makes thing much easier.

11-30-2020, 11:18 PM   #12
Pentaxian
cmohr's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,823
Yeas, the click stops on the indexed rotor work best in the dark, there are many kinds of rotors out there, some have less stops than others. That little sunawayfoto one shown in the artical has a small dial on the side to select the stops, but it only has 4 stops, 15,30,45 and 90deg. the Larger one, has the pin that you have to screw into the stop you want has 10 different angles. The leveling base is also a great little device, much easier to set your head completely level by just a few small moves, rather than playing with tripod legs to get level. It's the small things like these that make things much simpler to focus on the Pano itself, rather than the hassle of setting up.

And, Yeah, I always mount my camera (on any tripod head), with a Nodial rail (or Macro rail as it is also known) . That way you balance camera and lens directly of the centre of your tripod every time. I used to have a thread about my tripod system solution, but photobucket held my photos to ransom, maybe the photos can be put back into the thread by a mod, if I supply them

Actually, My go to head for astro is my Gimbal, with a nodial rail to mount the camera on the gimbal. It's so very very easy to tilt directly up if you want, and the entire camera and lens is pretty much always balanced directly over the centre the tripod, not leaning back over the tilt point. ( may have a pic somewhere)
12-01-2020, 03:02 PM   #13
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,711
Original Poster
A dumb pano question

After Christmas I hope to be able to hike to a place I've only been twice before. The subject will be a rock cliff wall with a 100 + ft. Arch projecting out from the face. The arch is probably 30 ft. off the ground. I can't stand back too far or trees will obstruct the view of the arch.

I'll use the Gitzo tripod with Arca Swiss ball head. The ball has a separate panning base. I know the tripod and panning base have to be level so the pan doesn't run up or down hill. The only way to get the arch in with the 55 lens (even vertically) is to point the ball up.

OK, the dumb question. If the tripod and pano base are level can the camera be aimed up or does this ruin a pano?

Thanks,
barondla
12-01-2020, 04:24 PM - 1 Like   #14
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Idaho
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,360
QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
After Christmas I hope to be able to hike to a place I've only been twice before. The subject will be a rock cliff wall with a 100 + ft. Arch projecting out from the face. The arch is probably 30 ft. off the ground. I can't stand back too far or trees will obstruct the view of the arch.

I'll use the Gitzo tripod with Arca Swiss ball head. The ball has a separate panning base. I know the tripod and panning base have to be level so the pan doesn't run up or down hill. The only way to get the arch in with the 55 lens (even vertically) is to point the ball up.

OK, the dumb question. If the tripod and pano base are level can the camera be aimed up or does this ruin a pano?

Thanks,
barondla
It won't ruin it (and it completely possible) but it can complicate stitching, particularly if a wide angle is used (you mentioned 55mm which is much less a problem). There will be some distortion in the stitched image (beyond that of a series of leveled shots), but depending on the upward angle, lens, and subject matter, it may not be noticeable.
12-01-2020, 05:09 PM - 1 Like   #15
Pentaxian
cmohr's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Brisbane. Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,823
As Bob says, you will probably experience some parallax error in the photos as the distance to subject is going to change considerably as you pan ( if my understanding of the situation is correct, that the ends of the arch are going to be much further away from the camera than the centre, so focus adjustments will be getting made along the way, and chances for focus breathing to occur, and possible changes to the tilt of the camera to keep a horizon line across the pano) but if you take enough pics and overlap them considerably you should be able to make it work.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645 panos, 645 panos bracket, 645 panos lens, 645 panos software, 645d, 645z, bracket, camera, center, distortion, edge, head, hugin, images, lens, lenses, medium format, object, pano recommendations, position, shots, software, tripod
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lens recommendations for adapted 645 primes diforbes Pentax Medium Format 12 09-01-2020 07:32 AM
Abstract Corn. Pentax 645Z + 645 Auto Bellows + 645 A 75 mm f/2.8 @ f/16. RICHARD L. Post Your Photos! 4 07-23-2020 06:07 AM
645 Panorama Stiching with D-FA 35mm 2351HD Pentax Medium Format 3 10-06-2018 05:56 AM
Recommendations for 360 panorama heads for K-3II Oakland Rob Pentax K-3 & K-3 II 13 02-24-2017 08:15 AM
Using 645 lenses on a K3 for panorama mikeodial Pentax DSLR Discussion 8 02-11-2015 08:39 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:04 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top