[pkboy]

And there are times when I have to go into them to find something I infrequently use, and then it's an irritant to find things. So, again, either have them be more rational or let users reconfigure them according to their needs (IMO the best option).

I don't disagree that finding infrequently used things is annoying. If I'm by my computer and need to change a setting, I'd rather open the manual and do a search instead of trying to remember if the setting is under a main menu option, a sub-menu, the custom setting menu, and so on.

And yes, I agree that implementing some kind of system that allows quick access to settings is a good idea, and it would be trivial at this point. Even something simple like a "favourite" flag that move things to the top of the list, or have them quickly accessible from a favourite settings tab. Or as you said, just let us rearrange the list.

Like your example about format being up front, the only reason I open up the menu every day or two is to get to the "delete all images" option and thankfully there is that option that saves my last menu position.

But that still doesn't really solve the problem with infrequently used settings, would it? It's still buried on the 3rd page because you don't use it frequently enough to move it on the first page. At least you know it's not on the first page

Guess I was trying to say that menu layout is probably on the 4th page of reasons I'd buy a camera, as long as it's usable but my idea of usability is different from others.

[kwb]

Hi barondla, certainly Pentax reshuffled the menu items, so it will take some time to re-learn where is what. But it seems to me that they are trying to organize things in a bit more logical manner (see below), which is a welcome move for me.

I think your concern about P&S menu is unfounded. I'm yet to see anything that exist in the current Pentax menu that is omitted or dumbed-down in the new menu, if that's what you're worried about. In addition, the menu system still retains familiar structure of categories (Rec Mode, Play Back, Custom and Setup), tabs (though I don't know if they'll be called tabs) and items under tabs. Main difference to me is that they reshuffled things such that a tab only comprises logically related items.

Look at the attached, these are pictures from DC Watch article (?????PENTAX K-3 Mark III???????? - ???? Watch) and I added my comments.

1. In the first picture, the user is on the first item of Rec Mode 1, the tab name is "Focus Setting", and there are only three items on that tab, i.e. AF with VF, AF with LV and AF Assist light.
2. A part of Rec Mode 2 tab is displayed even though you're on Rec Mode 1 tab because there are only 3 items in the current tab.
   1. The last item on tab 1 (AF Assist Light) and the first item on tab 2 (AE Metering) are visually separated by a horizontal line. From videos I watched, it seems that you can cross tab border by just scrolling by finger or pressing up/down.
   2. But I understand that on GR-III you can also press left key to go to tab-level, and use up/down key to quickly switch tabs. I expect that this is the case for Pentax too, and that either the rear dial or the third dial continues to work for this purpose.
   3. I also understand that on GR-III you can press left key twice to go to Menu Category level (Rec Mode, Playback, Custom Setting and Setup) and use up/down key to quickly switch categories. That should be available here too, and I also expect that the front dial continues to work for this purpose.
3. In the second picture (Rec Mode tab 2, "Exposure Setting" with 7 items),
   1. Two existing items, i.e. "Link AE and AF point" and "Auto EV Comp", migrated to here from C1 menu, which might make sense.
      1. But AE lock is still in Custom Menu (not shown here). It's not completely making sense to me.
   2. There's one new item, i.e. Face priority AE.
   3. There's "Flash Mode", I cannot remember if my KP has that in the menu.
4. Just for the sake of comparison, Rec Mode 1 on my KP contains Custom Image, AF with VF, AF with LV, AF Assist Light, AE Metering, ISO Auto and Program Line. That's rather chaotic.
   1. AE Metering, ISO Auto and Program Line moved to Rec Mode 2 as you already saw.
   2. Custom Image was moved to Rec Mode 6, i.e. "Image Finishing" or some such (3rd attachment) that has the items related to how the image is rendered. Makes sense to me.

[TDvN57]

The two main reasons why I buy a particular brand of camera are (1) the end result it can produce and (2) is it a practical camera. Practical in the physical sense of ergonomics and functionality.

If a menu system is complicated then it is a major put off. Pentax had gone a long way to maintain a practical camera with high tech capabilities. As they used to say "designed by photographers". If that concept is maintained with a different menu then ok for me. Hopefully Pentax is not following the path of convoluted menus like Fuji or Sony.

Edit:
May I add that whilst Nikon has great FF cameras, some of the settings you would expect to be easily accessible on a button or a dial is sometimes hidden in a menu. When on a trip I often have to assist my wife with her Nikon to find a setting hidden in a menu which I can access with a button or a dial on the Pentax. Don't ask me for an example because the last time we were on a trip where this happened was before Covid. But on more than one occasion it meant that we both lost the shots because we were fiddling with menu settings on the Nikon. Not a practical solution.

Whilst some people seem to be passionate about complex menus and the reluctance of others (like me) to adopt the same passion comes across as fear of change. The real reason is the reluctance of being bogged down with complex settings, whilst the opportunity to take a shot is diminished. A friend of mine has a new Fuji 50mpx and he spends more time fiddling with the menu than taking pictures, not a practical camera in my opinion. I also think that a simplistic functionality comparison of MF (film or digital) to a 35mmFF or APSC camera is showing lack of experience with a MF.

Hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, just saying my 10 cents.

[stevebrot]

Sorry, but the menu on your 65Z is already out of step with the K-70 and KP.

To paraphrase a great teacher, "Do not be concerned for the morrow, for sufficient today is the trouble thereof."


Steve

[Dan Rentea]

And yes, I agree that implementing some kind of system that allows quick access to settings is a good idea, and it would be trivial at this point. Even something simple like a "favourite" flag that move things to the top of the list, or have them quickly accessible from a favourite settings tab. Or as you said, just let us rearrange the list.

Maybe they implemented in the menu the "My menu" tab, which on other systems let you add the most used/important 12 functions in the order you want and they are shown once you click on the Menu button. This way you will not going to need very often to access the entire menu to find something. My Menu combined with the Info button and with the customizable buttons of the camera solve about 99% of the "problems" regarding a Menu, no matter how complex it is.

[Sandy Hancock]

The GR III menu system is amazing. Just because it's different is no cause to fear it.

[barondla]

The two main reasons why I buy a particular brand of camera are (1) the end result it can produce and (2) is it a practical camera. Practical in the physical sense of ergonomics and functionality.

If a menu system is complicated then it is a major put off. Pentax had gone a long way to maintain a practical camera with high tech capabilities. As they used to say "designed by photographers". If that concept is maintained with a different menu then ok for me. Hopefully Pentax is not following the path of convoluted menus like Fuji or Sony.

Edit:
May I add that whilst Nikon has great FF cameras, some of the settings you would expect to be easily accessible on a button or a dial is sometimes hidden in a menu. When on a trip I often have to assist my wife with her Nikon to find a setting hidden in a menu which I can access with a button or a dial on the Pentax. Don't ask me for an example because the last time we were on a trip where this happened was before Covid. But on more than one occasion it meant that we both lost the shots because we were fiddling with menu settings on the Nikon. Not a practical solution.

Whilst some people seem to be passionate about complex menus and the reluctance of others (like me) to adopt the same passion comes across as fear of change. The real reason is the reluctance of being bogged down with complex settings, whilst the opportunity to take a shot is diminished. A friend of mine has a new Fuji 50mpx and he spends more time fiddling with the menu than taking pictures, not a practical camera in my opinion. I also think that a simplistic functionality comparison of MF (film or digital) to a 35mmFF or APSC camera is showing lack of experience with a MF.

Hope I'm not stepping on any toes here, just saying my 10 cents.

This is so funny. I run into the same problem when shooting with a friend that is a Nikonian. He is constantly fiddling with the menu looking for something. Part of his problem is owning multiple Nikon models 850, 810, 700, 500, etc. Apparently the menus differ enough that anything but the basics throw him off. Now he just added an Olympus. I warned him that would be menu hell. I have plenty of Oly to know I never got as comfortable with them as Pentax.

The only reason for menus is there are too many features to have their own button. When I hear of menus needing to look flashier or prettier it makes me cringe. I don't pick a camera because it has the prettiest buttons. Usually some graphic artist screws up the function for it to be "artsy".

Menus make a bigger difference than people think. In beginning photo class there are lots of Canon and Nikon owners. After a meeting or two they tend to sit with their own group. When we are covering a feature they will often help people in their own group. The Canon group always goes much smoother than the Nikon group. I've even had students tell me they wish they hadn't bought a Nikon.

The GR mave have the best menu in the world, but it still causes a problem when all the other Pentax cameras one owns has something totally different.

Thanks,
barondla

[BigMackCam]

The GR mave have the best menu in the world, but it still causes a problem when all the other Pentax cameras one owns has something totally different.

It's only a problem if you allow it to be. As I mentioned in one of my earlier responses, in addition to Pentax I shoot some Sony gear, and really disliked the menus to begin with... but - after a short while shooting - I got used to them. The same basic settings are all there, just in a different presentation. Now, I don't even think about switching between Pentax and Sony... it just happens naturally. That's between separate brands - not two flavours of the same brand. If I can adapt that easily, so can you. From your posts in the forums, you seem like a smart enough chap. I'm certain you can handle a slightly different menu system if and when it comes to a 645-series camera. It might take you a few days of shooting to adapt fully, sure; but that's not really a "problem". We deal with far greater challenges in learning and practising our craft, not to mention the year we've all made it through Any minor inconvenience from a redesigned camera menu will, I suggest, be more than compensated by the excitement and enjoyment of all the capabilities that new camera brings

EDIT: ... and here's the thing... worrying about a new menu system won't change anything. If the next 645 has it (and I'd say that's highly probable), you can choose to (a) embrace it, (b) stick with your existing camera, or (c) switch (but that also requires adapting to a new menu system ). Still, you have three clear choices... and no need to worry

[photoptimist]

Personally, the new menu system looks like a nice incremental improvement that does not break the current design ethos of Pentax menu system which was pretty darn good to begin with.

In the old Pentax system one could quickly scan all the items by flipping thru the tabs (with the back e-dial) and each tab had exactly 6 items to scan through. Pentax menus never had hidden items (No need to scroll down into a tab to see the 7th, 8th etc item).

The new system respects that 6-visible-items-per-tab design and goes a step farther by naming the tabs and grouping items.

The point is that the new system seems to have the best of both worlds: items grouped by thematic tabs but also tabs laid out so there's never a rat hole of items hidden under a tab.

Brilliant!

[TDvN57]

It's only a problem if you allow it to be. As I mentioned in one of my earlier responses, in addition to Pentax I shoot some Sony gear, and hated their menus to begin with... but after a short while shooting, I got used to them. The same basic settings are all there, just in a different presentation. Now, I don't even think about switching between Pentax and Sony... it just happens naturally. If I can do that, so can you. From your posts in the forums, you seem like a smart enough chap. I'm certain you can handle a slightly different menu system if and when it comes to a 645-series camera. It might take you a few days of shooting to adapt fully, sure... but is that seriously a "problem", or just a minor inconvenience? I respectfully suggest it's the latter...

EDIT: ... and here's the thing... worrying about a new menu system won't get you or I anywhere. If the next 645 has it (and I'd say that's highly probable), you can choose to (a) embrace it, (b) stick with your existing camera, or (c) switch, but that also requires adapting to a new menu system. Still, you have three clear choices, and no need to worry

As I said before, my criteria for a brand includes being a practical functional camera. How they present the menu system is not my criteria, as long as the result remains practical and functional in the field. Up to now Pentax have sort-of maintained that criteria and I sincerely hope they continue.

Regarding Canon, I cant comment because I haven't touched one yet, lest I risk losing a finger or two :-)

Sony: I have a fair amount experience with their smaller video cameras I used for underwater video. Due to their menu system I have had to discard a lot of footage from deep dives which were not only expensive but also impossible to re-take. These were deep dives with one dive per day and extensive decompression involved. So yes I have an aversion to the presentation of Sony's excellent technology. Despite that I did buy a point and shoot RX10 some years ago. Can't help being a sucker sometimes. :-)

[barondla]

It's only a problem if you allow it to be. As I mentioned in one of my earlier responses, in addition to Pentax I shoot some Sony gear, and really disliked the menus to begin with... but - after a short while shooting - I got used to them. The same basic settings are all there, just in a different presentation. Now, I don't even think about switching between Pentax and Sony... it just happens naturally. That's between separate brands - not two flavours of the same brand. If I can adapt that easily, so can you. From your posts in the forums, you seem like a smart enough chap. I'm certain you can handle a slightly different menu system if and when it comes to a 645-series camera. It might take you a few days of shooting to adapt fully, sure; but that's not really a "problem". We deal with far greater challenges in learning and practising our craft, not to mention the year we've all made it through Any minor inconvenience from a redesigned camera menu will, I suggest, be more than compensated by the excitement and enjoyment of all the capabilities that new camera brings

EDIT: ... and here's the thing... worrying about a new menu system won't change anything. If the next 645 has it (and I'd say that's highly probable), you can choose to (a) embrace it, (b) stick with your existing camera, or (c) switch (but that also requires adapting to a new menu system ). Still, you have three clear choices... and no need to worry

Think our disagreement deals with how easy it is for people to feel comfortable with a new menu. I doubt the average user truly learns a new menu in weeks. Not when it's a complex product. How do you explain Microsoft's dumpster fire of Windows 8 Vista? Computer manufacturers blamed Msoft for the crash in computer sales. It was awful, and people didn't get used to it in a few weeks. You seem to believe all menus are equally easy to use, I don't.

I'm not just worried about the next 645. I'm concerned about all future Pentax models. No matter how much we gain with a new menu, we also loose having all camera's work the same. I'm picky and even tire of Pentax's inability to set up their 4 way controller short cuts consistently. The same short cuts are placed differently on many models. Why? This means having to look at the 4 way controller before using shortcuts and makes short cuts slower than they could be.

Thanks,
barondla

[Larrymc]

the menus look basically the same, but the header isn't at the top, it's on the left side.

That's what I got from the video, basically the same structure but with a vertical header instead of a horizontal header.

[luftfluss]

How do you explain Microsoft's dumpster fire of Windows 8 Vista?

Windows 8 and Windows Vista are two separate OSes. Vista ->7 ->8.

[Larrymc]

Windows 8 and Windows Vista are two separate OSes. Vista ->7 ->8.

Yep, no such thing as Windows 8 Vista. But Vista was a pig of an operating system.....I refused to upgrade to that O/S waited till 7 came out which was a very different animal from Vista.

[barondla]

Windows 8 and Windows Vista are two separate OSes. Vista ->7 ->8.

Oops. Sorry, no computer expert here. Windows 8 is the one I was thinking of. I hold on to W7 computers until they die. The W10 laptop is about 2 years old. Still don't find it as easy as W7. Not to mention everything that has to be turned off upon arrival.

Thanks,
barondla