[Madaboutpix]

A point & shoot menu doesn't belong on an advanced amateur or professional camera.

Well, I suggest we suspend our final judgement until the camera is in our hands and use, before we call it a point-and-shoot menue, by which you seem to imply lack of suitability for a highend DSLR and/or lack of sophistication/professionalism.

[BigMackCam]

A point & shoot menu doesn't belong on an advanced amateur or professional camera.

Do you seriously consider the GRIII to be a "point & shoot" camera?

For Heaven's sake, man... it has the same depth of control and image quality capabilities as any other high-end APS-C model, whether fixed lens, DSLR or MILC. It is an "advanced amateur" camera, and perfectly capable of professional applications where it suits the use case. It's not your average Nikon Coolpix or Canon PowerShot compact with a tiny sensor and mostly-automatic functionality aimed at casual photographers It may be physically small, have a fixed lens and no viewfinder, but the GRIII is every inch a serious enthusiast's tool with a huge amount of functionality and control options, and a menu system that suits such an advanced camera. Dimensions aside, it's no more "point & shoot" than our Pentax DSLRs (your 645Z included).

Why, then, would the same menu system appearance and structure be any less suitable on an interchangeable lens enthusiast / professional camera? Because it's not what you're used to?

Why not wait until the new camera is released and try it? You might actually like the way the menus work. Regardless, that's clearly the direction Ricoh is going in. Progress is inevitable, and the 645Z is six years old now, with menus based on even older models. Any evolution in the 645 line is likely to require a whole bunch of additional menu items to support new functionality - so a revised menu system is probably beneficial, if not a necessity.

There's no point letting it worry you

[automorphism]

The new menu actually looks a lot like a Panasonic menu.

[normhead]

The new menu actually looks a lot like a Panasonic menu.

I hate the menu on my ZS100, if that's like the one your talking about.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

[pkboy]

Reading all these comments lead me to wonder how often everyone else dives into the menu for this to be a huge problem.
All these comments sound like everyone is diving into the menu after every shot or something vs maybe once early on the day of shooting

Granted, my skills aren't great and I'm not a professional even though I have received money in exchange for my photos (very few of them). Maybe I'm doing something wrong and I should dive into the menu more so I can improve my photos

[JPT]

One of the 1st K3 III testers said its new menu system is closer to a GR 3 than Pentax DSLR, and that Pentax make would need patience to learn it. I don't like the sound of this. I have no need for a K3 III, but fear this new menu spread out to future camera's like the 645Z2. I shoot many models of Pentax from *isn't DL forward and have always appreciated how the well thought out basic menu has remained the same. This allows seamlessly moving from camera to camera. I hope this menu doesn't move to the next 645 camera.

Thanks,
barondla

I think it is more accurate to say that Ricoh Imaging has made a new touch-capable UI for all its cameras, and there is a GR and Pentax spin of it. The fact that it first appeared in it’s GR incarnation on the GR III is just a matter of timing. Albert Siegel's video mentioned that it will be used on future Pentax cameras, and I would expect the 645 series to be no exception.

The GR menu is very deep and mostly offers as much control as a DSLR - not dumbed-down at all. Compared to a DSLR, the main omissions are inevitable things related to the control of interchangeable lenses. In fact the GR III has already adopted some terminology from Pentax, such as “D-Range” and “SR”. These were called something different before. So even though the GR III is a compact camera, most of the things you need to adjust are common with a DSLR, and it follows that these parts of the interface would be the same if there's no reason to be different.

From the video I can already several aspects of that menu system that are specific to Pentax and not present on the GR III. For example, the JPEG profiles are shown in the hexagonal Pentax style, while they are shown as icons and sliders on the GR III. Another example is the information screen with the tiled arrangement of settings. This is not present on the GR III, which uses a different method of accessing quick settings using the jog dial. So there is plenty of Pentax-specific design in the new menus - it isn’t just the GR menu stuck on a Pentax. I think they are being quite careful to make sure that Pentax users feel at home.

There are some aspects of the new system that just work better than the old Pentax arrangement in my opinion. When cameras had 4:3 aspect screens, having the category icons at the top was fine. But now the cameras have 3:2 aspect screens, so having the icons on the left leaves more vertical space for items in the list. It’s more space efficient. It also means a single left push will take you back to the categories, rather than having to go all the way back to the top. The subcategory title at the top that changes as you swipe down the list is a nice navigational aid. Having more blank space between the text in menu items is easier on the eye in my opinion (and will help people with certain visual impairments).

Physical buttons are always quicker than a menu dive. Having said that, with the GR III I don’t feel the same reluctance to enter the menu system that I do with Pentax. It has made me more likely to explore with different settings. Having a touch screen makes it much more flexible because all navigation is duplicated on screen and with the physical controls. In my case, I do most navigating and selection with the touch screen and then use a physical button to confirm selection. I think everyone will find their own preferred way of using the screen and buttons to their preference.

[RedBoomer]

I have, until recently acquiring a GR3, only ever used Pentax cameras and their menu's - I have never had the 'pleasure' of having to dive into a canikony menu. However I found the GR3 easy to understand and move about in. The main difference is that the Headings are structured vertically down the left side rather than across the top but that is easy to adopt to. I suggest there is little to fear from a Ricoh menu!

[automorphism]

I hate the menu on my ZS100, if that's like the one your talking about.

If it's not broke, don't fix it.

I was thinking of the G9 menu. But looking at a ZS100 shot on the internet, It looks similar. I don't really think it is overly logical.

In fact, Pentax did something really good with their older menu, the one with the tabs on top. Because the tabs were on top and stacked in a row, it makes a lot of sense that the left/right pad buttons moved across screens of menu options, and the up/down directions scrolled through individual options on a single page. This is very intuitive.

On the other hand, the vertical orientation of everything removes this very logical spatial cue, and makes the menus feel more disorganized. I am not sure how the new Pentax operates, but on both Nikon and Panasonic menus, it is impossible (as far as I am aware) to scroll a page at a time, whereas because of Pentax menus, that horizontal/vertical option is possible. With the vertical menu, left/right just selects a menu option. I suppose that has the advantage that it's clear that right selects and left de-selects, but I don't think it is necessarily easier to navigate.

However...it is a relatively minor thing once the camera is actually set-up. Still kind of annoying sometimes though when you NEED to change a specific option in the field and you have endlessly scroll through individual options rather than by page with the Pentax style.

[barondla]

Do you seriously consider the GRIII to be a "point & shoot" camera?

For Heaven's sake, man... it has the same depth of control and image quality capabilities as any other high-end APS-C model, whether fixed lens, DSLR or MILC. It is an "advanced amateur" camera, and perfectly capable of professional applications where it suits the use case. It's not your average Nikon Coolpix or Canon PowerShot compact with a tiny sensor and mostly-automatic functionality aimed at casual photographers It may be physically small, have a fixed lens and no viewfinder, but the GRIII is every inch a serious enthusiast's tool with a huge amount of functionality and control options, and a menu system that suits such an advanced camera. Dimensions aside, it's no more "point & shoot" than our Pentax DSLRs (your 645Z included).

Why, then, would the same menu system appearance and structure be any less suitable on an interchangeable lens enthusiast / professional camera? Because it's not what you're used to?

Why not wait until the new camera is released and try it? You might actually like the way the menus work. Regardless, that's clearly the direction Ricoh is going in. Progress is inevitable, and the 645Z is six years old now, with menus based on even older models. Any evolution in the 645 line is 2likely to require a whole bunch of additional menu items to support new functionality - so a revised menu system is probably beneficial, if not a necessity.

There's no point letting it worry you

Yes, I consider the GR III a Point & Shoot camera. So does Ricoh. Well, they use a different term on their website: GR III | RICOH IMAGING the first line says: "The ultimate snapshot camera for the times."


Thanks,
barondla

[BigMackCam]

Yes, I consider the GR III a Point & Shoot camera. So does Ricoh. Well, they use a different term on their website: GR III | RICOH IMAGING the first line says: "The ultimate snapshot camera for the times."

As you wish... Our definitions of a "point & shoot" camera clearly differ considerably, but that's OK.

So, is your concern that the next 645 iteration will somehow be "dumbed down" to point & shoot functionality via the menu system? If so, rest assured that the GRIII and new K-3III offer at least as much breadth and depth of functionality and control as your 645Z, but presented in different form factors. The 645Z is no more advanced than these smaller-bodied cameras... it merely has a bigger sensor, and a longer flange focal distance to cater for the large reflex mirror and compatibility with old system lenses.

Or, are you simply concerned that the new menus will be unfamiliar - fear of change, for want of a kinder description? If so, I can appreciate this... but, new menus in a new camera are no more an issue than the slick interior styling and control layouts in a new motor vehicle. Drive it for a few hours or days, and you quickly get used to it.

I suspect Ricoh wants a fresher look and slicker experience for its menus going forward, as well as to realise some efficiencies in firmware development that can apply to all of the enthusiast cameras across the Pentax and Ricoh brands. You may or may not like the styling and layout of the new menu system, but it's just a "skin" on top of mostly the same features and settings...

[Rondec]

I don't think there is anything to worry about. Once you've set things up, you will be able to access 99 percent of what you need from either buttons or the info screen. The odds that you need to go menu diving after the first day or so are pretty minimal. At least that is my experience.

[TDvN57]

As you wish... Our definitions of a "point & shoot" camera clearly differ considerably, but that's OK.

So, is your concern that the next 645 iteration will somehow be "dumbed down" to point & shoot functionality via the menu system? If so, rest assured that the GRIII and new K-3III offer at least as much breadth and depth of functionality and control as your 645Z, but presented in different form factors. The 645Z is no more advanced than these smaller-bodied cameras... it merely has a bigger sensor, and a longer flange focal distance to cater for the large reflex mirror and compatibility with old system lenses.

Or, are you simply concerned that the new menus will be unfamiliar - fear of change, for want of a kinder description? If so, I can appreciate this... but, new menus in a new camera are no more an issue than the slick interior styling and control layouts in a new motor vehicle. Drive it for a few hours or days, and you quickly get used to it.

I suspect Ricoh wants a fresher look and slicker experience for its menus going forward, as well as to realise some efficiencies in firmware development that can apply to all of the enthusiast cameras across the Pentax and Ricoh brands. You may or may not like the styling and layout of the new menu system, but it's just a "skin" on top of mostly the same features and settings...

Mike, your passion is inspiring, I was wondering if you would share with us your view about medium format versus 35mm FF?

[BigMackCam]

Mike, your passion is inspiring

Thank you

I was wondering if you would share with us your view about medium format versus 35mm FF?

Happily

My view of any format versus another is centred on the practicality and suitability of the sensor format, lenses, camera performance, size and weight of equipment with respect to specific use cases and situations, control over depth of field and image quality requirements (dynamic range, detail etc.). Medium format, 35mm FF, APS-C, Micro 4/3, 1" and smaller... they all have advantages and disadvantages depending on the use case and situation.

The size of the camera and format of the sensor have little to do with its functionality, and the baseline functions of most enthusiast-level cameras, regardless of format, are much the same. I see no reason why they can't share, or might be disadvantaged by, a common, well-designed menu style and structure. The old-style menus worked perfectly from the Pentax Q, right the way up to the 645Z. I'm sure the newer style found in the GRIII and forthcoming K-3III would work equally well on the 645Z or any other enthusiast-level camera

I'd be equally interested to know your view...

[texandrews]

Reading all these comments lead me to wonder how often everyone else dives into the menu for this to be a huge problem.
All these comments sound like everyone is diving into the menu after every shot or something vs maybe once early on the day of shooting

Granted, my skills aren't great and I'm not a professional even though I have received money in exchange for my photos (very few of them). Maybe I'm doing something wrong and I should dive into the menu more so I can improve my photos

Your point is somewhat well taken....but the difficulty is that the menus as they stand today inhibit people from using them extensively---I know it does me. And there are times when I have to go into them to find something I infrequently use, and then it's an irritant to find things. So, again, either have them be more rational or let users reconfigure them according to their needs (IMO the best option).

[ffking]

I really can't see a problem - all you need to do with any search system is to see how it is organised, and the rest follows naturally - it doesn't have to be familiar if you understand how it works - and it actually doesn't look very different in principle to me, just a little differently laid out - and to be honest, I think I prefer it, purely visually. at least.