Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-22-2021, 02:24 PM   #16
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2017
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 554
QuoteOriginally posted by SylvainB Quote
I would say a good portion of early adopters of the Z, who wanted to have the best possible lenses to match with the camera. It is probably not the same with people who bought discounted or second hand cameras because they were on a tighter budget.
I ordered a 645Z at a dealer the day it was presented in my country (love at first sight, my first MFD), with the DFA55.
I bought a 28-45 new, because I could.
I bought a 2nd hand DFA90 just after, because it was in beautiful condition and immediately available.
I bought a FA150 at the official Pentax dealer in my country, new, because I could.
I bought a DFA35 new in the same shop, because I still could.
The FA120 and FA300/4 were bought 2nd hand (because I don't use them often).
I think I did my best to support Pentax in this system, buying a lot of new gear. I would have followed with a renewed "80-160" with SR or AW as it was proposed on the lens roadmap, but which was never released.

I don't see what I could have done more to support Pentax effort on the MFD market. But I don't see anything more coming, and I have abandonned hope.

I'm sure I am not the only one to have this experience of buying new and early, but waiting for next move. There are several members here who own quite a lot of modern Pentax 645 gear, and make good use of it (with more talent than me) !
I suspect you're probably pretty typical relative to the early adopters. And at that point, Pentax probably made a good profit on the 645z.

But now they have to compete with Fuji, plus increasingly high-res options on full frame. So a lot more competition than when they first came out. Plus the Fuji people can use pretty much all the Pentax lenses(though not all with AF).

It's pretty hard to see a good way forward for a company the size of Pentax in MF. Go up market and compete with Phase One and Hassleblad? Maybe, but not sure a Limited lens fits in there.

01-23-2021, 12:25 AM   #17
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
ivanvernon's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Medina, OH
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,640
QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
I suspect you're probably pretty typical relative to the early adopters. And at that point, Pentax probably made a good profit on the 645z.

But now they have to compete with Fuji, plus increasingly high-res options on full frame. So a lot more competition than when they first came out. Plus the Fuji people can use pretty much all the Pentax lenses(though not all with AF).

It's pretty hard to see a good way forward for a company the size of Pentax in MF. Go up market and compete with Phase One and Hassleblad? Maybe, but not sure a Limited lens fits in there.
For a limited lens, I wish to nominate my Pentax-D FA 90mm f 2.8, perhaps one of the top ten MF lens ever produced for any MF system.
01-26-2021, 04:11 AM - 1 Like   #18
Pentaxian
Jonathan Mac's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 7,353
TBH I can't see the Pentax 645 system lasting much longer against Fujifilm is they don't update something. The 645Z is now seven years old.
01-26-2021, 06:10 AM   #19
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
ivanvernon's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Medina, OH
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,640
Updating the 645Z

QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
TBH I can't see the Pentax 645 system lasting much longer against Fujifilm is they don't update something. The 645Z is now seven years old.
You may well be right though strictly speaking from an optical standpoint almost any need can be met from the array of 645 and 67 lenses available. I see no sense in adding more megapixels to the sensor, but would love to have in-camera SR. I would love to see updated lenses, particularly the 120mm macro. It would be great also to see upgraded versions of several P67 lenses for the 645 series--the 55mm, the 75mm f 2.8, and the 105mm.

It would be interesting to hear what other forum members think are needed as upgrades to the 645Z system, both the camera and the lenses.

01-26-2021, 06:43 AM   #20
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,033
Original Poster
One of Pentax's problems is the number of cheap used lenses on the market. The ability to use old film lenses on the digital D and Z is a great selling point, but is a double edged sword. To combat this Pentax should have refreshed the FA lenses they are still selling. What company selling high tech products expects to be selling the exact same product 20-30 years later? I believe Pentax should have updated all the old lenses with their latest multi coatings. This couldn't have cost much to do. They could also add rounded aperture blades for nicer bokeh.

Thanks,
barondla
01-26-2021, 03:07 PM - 2 Likes   #21
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 18,680
Iím not in the medium format market. But I think a modest ibis would be great. Even 2-3 stops would be a pleasant outcome. Add super res pixel shift via this and a bit of this and that - and you would have a low effort refresh.
01-26-2021, 03:12 PM   #22
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 14,607
Since the idea of the Limiteds seems to have been to make slower but more portable lenses, there wouldn't seem to be such a weight advantage for the 645, which is the biggest and heaviest camera that Pentax makes.

The Limiteds are a compromise compared to the Star lenses, after all.

I think a 645Z owner certainly didn't worry about the cost compromise of medium format.
01-26-2021, 03:16 PM - 1 Like   #23
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
UncleVanya's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 18,680
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think a 645Z owner certainly didn't worry about the cost compromise of medium format.
Unless their other camera is a 16x20 view camera.

01-26-2021, 10:34 PM - 1 Like   #24
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,033
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Since the idea of the Limiteds seems to have been to make slower but more portable lenses, there wouldn't seem to be such a weight advantage for the 645, which is the biggest and heaviest camera that Pentax makes.

The Limiteds are a compromise compared to the Star lenses, after all.

I think a 645Z owner certainly didn't worry about the cost compromise of medium format.
Size wasn't the only goal of the Limited series. The designer, Jun Hirakawa talks about making lenses that create life like images vs technically perfect. Looks over measurements. This look is what I'm proposing for medium format. A lot of pros are shooting older lenses to get away from the stark perfection of new lenses.

A fair number of 645 shooters carry a 55 or 75 lens because of their small size. Most 28-45 owners praise the optical quality but negatively mention it's large size and heavy weight.

Even in 2014 there were lenses that outperformed the 77. But it won that year's Lens Tournament. It might do so again this year.

Thanks,
barondla
01-27-2021, 09:49 AM - 2 Likes   #25
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Baltimore
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,048
QuoteOriginally posted by UncleVanya Quote
Iím not in the medium format market. But I think a modest ibis would be great. Even 2-3 stops would be a pleasant outcome. Add super res pixel shift via this and a bit of this and that - and you would have a low effort refresh.
Couldn't agree more! BTW, the IBIS/PS protocols also allow for composition adjustment, which would be quite nice.

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Since the idea of the Limiteds seems to have been to make slower but more portable lenses, there wouldn't seem to be such a weight advantage for the 645, which is the biggest and heaviest camera that Pentax makes.

The Limiteds are a compromise compared to the Star lenses, after all.

I think a 645Z owner certainly didn't worry about the cost compromise of medium format.
There's more to the Limiteds than that. But portability also is something we Z users consider on occasion. As is cost....so, see below.

QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Size wasn't the only goal of the Limited series. The designer, Jun Hirakawa talks about making lenses that create life like images vs technically perfect. Looks over measurements. This look is what I'm proposing for medium format. A lot of pros are shooting older lenses to get away from the stark perfection of new lenses.

A fair number of 645 shooters carry a 55 or 75 lens because of their small size. Most 28-45 owners praise the optical quality but negatively mention it's large size and heavy weight.

Even in 2014 there were lenses that outperformed the 77. But it won that year's Lens Tournament. It might do so again this year.

Thanks,
barondla
barondla hits the nail on the head again. I'll add: in this contemporary period we've gotten used to a certain technical quality from everything that's become fetishized. For its entire history---once there got to be some varied manufacturing of lenses--- photographers have used lenses for particular looks/reasons. It wasn't always about clinical aspects. The Limiteds are expressly---via multiple official statements---about a different quality of image rendering.

That's why, barondla, that I was quite interested in this thread you started. I thought it was a very perceptive one.
01-27-2021, 02:40 PM - 1 Like   #26
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 14,607
QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
There's more to the Limiteds than that. But portability also is something we Z users consider on occasion.
I think 'on occasion' is the key phrase as far as a corporation goes.

A big, heavy flagship MF system has so few customers already that Sony, Canon and Nikon won't do one. Little lenses (with inferior optical correction) to go on them is a contradiction already. As you point out, there are user cases, but now we're talking about minority cases for a minority sector of the camera market - the economics are against that!

I will say straight out that if I had a rich aunt die I wouldn't be getting some latest and greatest Sony A1 or Canon R6 with EVF, 4k video and 15fps frame rate, it would be a 645Z.
01-27-2021, 06:47 PM - 1 Like   #27
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: midwest, United States
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,033
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I think 'on occasion' is the key phrase as far as a corporation goes.

Little lenses (with inferior optical correction) to go on them is a contradiction already.
If you are saying the Limiteds have inferior optical correction, not sure I or Pentax agree. Jun thought it strange that we optimize lenses for flat subjects when that is rarely what we photograph. He was trying to reproduce subjects with more of their natural roundness as opposed to flat cardboard sailboat cutouts on the ocean. I've encountered the same effect in highend audio. A system can reproduce great width and depth, but individual singers have overly enhanced edges and are flat. This isn't how the world appears or sounds to most people.

Nikon and Canon haven't built medium format systems. They also didn't build advanced amateur/pro interchangeable lens mirrorless systems 10 years ago. Leica obviously saw something in medium format. How many pros use their system? Doubt many. They are going after the affluent amateur.

If the medium format market is as small as many claim, Fujifilm is going to look like the dumbest camera company ever in a few years. I wonder has the Pentax K-1 outsold the Fuji GFX medium format bodies?

Thanks,
barondla
01-27-2021, 09:53 PM   #28
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 14,607
QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
If you are saying the Limiteds have inferior optical correction, not sure I or Pentax agree.
They definitely do, Barondla. In fact, IIRC in his essay Hirakawa admits there is uncorrected spherical aberration that he claims is part of the FA77's rendering charms. That's why the FA77 can't match the DFA*85 for resolution, why it has that much chromatic aberration and the bokeh isn't as smooth.

By the way, before we elevate Jun to sainthood about the Limiteds, there are nine of them AFAIK and he designed *three* of them.

He had no opposition to designing, big, expensive, high quality, well-corrected lenses - he is responsible for the A*85 and FA*80-200 and the monstrous FA*600 on full frame and the DA*55 on APS-C.


QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
If the medium format market is as small as many claim, Fujifilm is going to look like the dumbest camera company ever in a few years.
I'm not sure they make much if anything on it, Barondla, they like the others refuse to give us statistics. My suspicion is that their whole camera division loses money and is kept going by their Instax products.

Hasselblad was a long established MF maker and was bought by a Chinese drone manufacturer.

I would say that Sony, Canon and Nikon with the crashing camera market have thoroughly studied medium format and concluded it doesn't work. And Sony make the sensors, they could do it cheaper than anyone.

Last edited by clackers; 01-27-2021 at 10:01 PM.
01-28-2021, 06:58 AM - 3 Likes   #29
Forum Member




Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 69
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote

I will say straight out that if I had a rich aunt die I wouldn't be getting some latest and greatest Sony A1 or Canon R6 with EVF, 4k video and 15fps frame rate, it would be a 645Z.
It was crypto for me - paid out well and treated myself to the 645z I was in the market for an SLR replacement for my D810's and the deal was good. Sony didn't get a look in. I've always just wanted one and now I have one. eBay churned up a lovely 200f4, 80-160 - and Park cameras a nice 45-85 and I bit the bullet on a new 28-45 which blows Fuji's 32-64 out the water.

That said - if I was ok with mirrorless I'd have gone with Fuji. I really hope Pentax continue with the system and put the 100mp sensor in a revised 645z for 2022 or so
01-28-2021, 08:18 AM - 1 Like   #30
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Baltimore
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,048
QuoteOriginally posted by SFTphotography Quote
It was crypto for me - paid out well and treated myself to the 645z
Wow.Thought that stuff was sorta fake/sketchy.
QuoteQuote:
and I bit the bullet on a new 28-45 which blows Fuji's 32-64 out the water.
Do tell!
QuoteQuote:
I really hope Pentax continue with the system and put the 100mp sensor in a revised 645z for 2022 or so
Me too.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, 645z, 77 limited for 645, camera, lens, lenses, limited lens for 645, medium format, pentax, pentax design
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax A 645 300mm f 4 doesn't change the diaphragm opening hatsofe Pentax Medium Format 4 11-22-2020 08:44 AM
Is the D FA* 50/1.4 a Pentax/ Ricoh design or a Tokina design? Wheatfield Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 60 06-28-2020 03:15 PM
FA Limited lens series won the 2010 Good Design Long Life Design Award Patriot Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 26 11-29-2010 06:16 AM
An example of why the 70mm Limited doesn't suck... Talisman39 Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 43 09-27-2009 05:49 PM
Why doesn't Pentax make a camera that uses another manufactures lens mount? steffi Pentax DSLR Discussion 44 04-18-2007 08:14 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:49 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top