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04-21-2021, 09:48 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Think it is a mistake to target the pros. Not enough of them. Fuji doesn't appear to be targeting them. The well to advanced amateur is where the numbers and money are. Look at the people happily buying $2k Fuji lenses.

Thanks,
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Fuji also isn't selling expensive full size medium format bodies. If Ricoh decided to go full 645 or 67 that would put them into the price range of $35,000-50,000 like the Phase One and Hasselblad and people spending that kind of money want a pro service even if they are not professionals.

04-21-2021, 10:12 AM   #17
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I find it remarkable that one can still purchase the 645Z, a seven-year-old camera from Ricoh's webstore priced at USD $7,000. Are they still making small batches of the camera or do they have an old stash in their stockroom? Meanwhile, B and H sells them with a 75mm lens for $5,000 (which is the same price without the lens). Adorama's website isn't working for me today, I but I think they recently had the same free-lens offer.
04-21-2021, 10:27 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by EssJayEff Quote
I find it remarkable that one can still purchase the 645Z, a seven-year-old camera from Ricoh's webstore priced at USD $7,000. Are they still making small batches of the camera or do they have an old stash in their stockroom? Meanwhile, B and H sells them with a 75mm lens for $5,000 (which is the same price without the lens). Adorama's website isn't working for me today, I but I think they recently had the same free-lens offer.
Adorama currently has body only for $5000. No body/lens combo for the 645Z at the moment there.
04-21-2021, 11:30 AM   #19
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The best suggestion I might make is to resume production of the 645N II.


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04-21-2021, 12:15 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by FozzFoster Quote
My pure speculation is that 645 is just as forgotten about as their fourth format = Q mount
QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
see Pentax heading with their 645 system?
Another good reference would be Ricoh's roadmaps for the mounts:

K-Mount (updated relatively frequently; February 2021):
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/K_Mount_Lens.pdf

Q-Mount (last updated Feb 2017):
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/Q_Mount_Lens.pdf

645-Mount (last updated Feb 2017-same as Q):
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/products/lens/images/645_Mount_Lens.pdf
04-21-2021, 01:43 PM - 2 Likes   #21
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Well, late to the party. Was going to multi-quote but there got to be too many of them. So, here's comments that are my answers a bunch of the points above

  • I remain optimistic that Pentax will not abandon the 645 line, although I have to admit my optimism is waning a bit. As far as the 645 line vs. the Q line---Pentax put a whole lot more into the 645 line than the Q line (which was sort of the upgrade to the Pentax 110 film cameras), so pulling the plug on it entirely would be very different and a much worse PR move. I think if the line was dead then they would have already made more noise about it. It's unfortunate that the lens roadmap hasn't been updated since 2017, but then Pentax seems to have been busy during that time, and it seems thay can only work on one thing at a time.
  • It's true that Fuji aggressively went after the deep pocketed enthusiast segment (after Pentax paved the way for them! Ahem...), but they are also going after pros. So, Pentax can do the same. Hassy is the medium format version of Leica, and so will behave that way. Phase has aggressively targeted the cultural heritage market. There's space there to compete, for real. So, I think Pentax ought to be looking there. That's where the larger format has some of its most dedicated adherents. There's other pro work that is better served by FF now---but then that started to be true in film days. Then there's that group of pros who could be using FF, but have decided that the advantages of medium format outweigh the disadvantages for their work. So, I believe the pro market remains very viable, especially for a lower sales numbers outfit like Pentax.
  • Medium format digital is not just a matter of resolution. That's part of it to be sure, but overall IQ is the bigger deal. And it's not just pixel/fairy dust differences. While the measurers can show us certain numbers, and those are valid, I maintain that we are not measuring certain aspects of IQ where medium format makes a difference/shines. I can see it in my files, and I shoot both FF and medium format, sometimes side by side---and I shot FF before I got my Z, so I have been shooting it longer, and I have shot apsc and 4/3 as well. If you don't believe there's a difference between FF and medium format, then how can you believe there is one between FF and apsc, or apsc and 4/3. Can't have that cake and eat it too.
  • 6x7 seems a bridge too far for Pentax, and would need a re-do of that lens line. Pentax is too small to make that happen. And those cameras would be costing a very great deal.
  • Crop frame 645 vs FF 645 is the most interesting question IMO. Clear advantages to Pentax on the FF side. OTOH, it's not like crop frame is meat for dogs. With PSR, IBIS, and some new sensor tech crop frame remains highly useful. Can that be done with a FF 645 sensor? Most likely not as cost effectively.
  • Finally, I'd say this discussion is better suited to those of us who have skin in the game, i.e. digital medium format shooters, with a bonus to those of us who shoot FF as well. I've been shooting FF for 11 years now with 6 different bodies from 3 manufacturers, and FF side by side with my Z for 7 years this coming month. I think I've got a sense of it, even if I'm not an expert measurer.

Last edited by texandrews; 04-21-2021 at 01:49 PM.
04-21-2021, 02:48 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Pentax put a whole lot more into the 645 line than the Q line
This is a really well taken point!
In addition, the Q wouldn't really fit with the whole current double-down on OVF.

04-21-2021, 03:39 PM   #23
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645 is also less commoditized, meaning there's a bit more flexibility pricing wise and less of a race to the bottom. One key disadvantage of the DSLR format as the format gets bigger is the increase in three dimensions to accommodate a larger mirror that requires more depth to clear the mount.

So this also makes the weight of the body increase faster than mirrorless, all else equal.

There's also the lens sizes as a result of the increased flange distance, at least for wide-normal lenses.

I'd be excited to see Pentax pull off a new 645 DSLR that had a larger sensor with SR, and a body depth that is as close to the FFD of the mount as possible. The 645 FFD is 7.1cm, meaning that depending on the thickness of the LCD and sensor housing, you might be able to pull off a 645 DSLR that is about 8-9cm deep, compared to the 11-12cm of the current 645Z (based on my informal measurement). That's not excessively far off from the GFX bodies but I'm oversimplifying what takes up thickness in the body behind the sensor...
04-22-2021, 12:38 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
The best suggestion I might make is to resume production of the 645N II.


Steve
This ! I need a second body and my 645NII is feeling lonely. The 645NII is IMHO the most hand-holdale MF out there with an extremely intutive interface. in every sense it is just an overgrown 35mm and handles like one.


For the new 645 just make the back removeable and upgradable. If possible open the interface for 3rd parties or partners OR how about this wild idea - How about just making a digital back for the existing 645NII bodies - could be a boon to studio setups.


When they are at it, may be also get the LX back as well, please.
04-22-2021, 05:31 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarneyL Quote
How about you folks? Where would you like to see Pentax heading with their 645 system?
In order to consider development of any new camera, they have to estimate anticipated units they are going to sell. The initial 645Z success came from the fact that it was the first to market and the value proposition was hard to beat. So Pentax had a good head start. Now, we have Fuji that has taken that value proposition from Pentax. It is not just about a new body. With a new body, you need modern new lenses. I think it will take massive investment on Ricoh's part to develop a new body and at least 4-5 new lenses to compete. Fuji has already released four bodies and plenty of lenses to support the system. The ROI for Pentax is not there anymore. They have to sell in the tens of thousands to justify the cost of R&D. I don't see that happening. 645Z was a gift that Pentax squandered away by not following up on further development. I think the game is over on the MF side for Pentax. They will be much better off focusing on FF and APS-c.
04-22-2021, 07:34 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
In order to consider development of any new camera, they have to estimate anticipated units they are going to sell. The initial 645Z success came from the fact that it was the first to market and the value proposition was hard to beat. So Pentax had a good head start. Now, we have Fuji that has taken that value proposition from Pentax. It is not just about a new body. With a new body, you need modern new lenses. I think it will take massive investment on Ricoh's part to develop a new body and at least 4-5 new lenses to compete. Fuji has already released four bodies and plenty of lenses to support the system. The ROI for Pentax is not there anymore. They have to sell in the tens of thousands to justify the cost of R&D. I don't see that happening. 645Z was a gift that Pentax squandered away by not following up on further development. I think the game is over on the MF side for Pentax. They will be much better off focusing on FF and APS-c.
I hate to say it, but it seems like this is probably true. I don't think there is enough of a market to justify going up to FF645. Certainly not to digital 6x7. Those arts and academic organizations that are using Hassy or PhaseOne, they don't have the money to buy a whole new system.

What they can do it get a better sensor into the existing 645 body, add IBIS and pixelshift, and improve computational photography capabilities. All of that shouldn't require new sensors or massive redesigns. And there will be people who choose Pentax over Fuji. Those who want an OVF. And those who actually like a bigger body. I don't get the fad of trying to make FF and MF bodies smaller. I want a sizable grip and good ergonomics to go with the larger lenses.
04-22-2021, 09:04 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
I hate to say it, but it seems like this is probably true. I don't think there is enough of a market to justify going up to FF645. Certainly not to digital 6x7. Those arts and academic organizations that are using Hassy or PhaseOne, they don't have the money to buy a whole new system.

What they can do it get a better sensor into the existing 645 body, add IBIS and pixelshift, and improve computational photography capabilities. All of that shouldn't require new sensors or massive redesigns. And there will be people who choose Pentax over Fuji. Those who want an OVF. And those who actually like a bigger body. I don't get the fad of trying to make FF and MF bodies smaller. I want a sizable grip and good ergonomics to go with the larger lenses.
This is basically me. I chose the 645z over the GFX50s for it's size, layout and OVF. I'd love a 100mp version of the same, and I doubt it would cost Pentax a lot to engineer. Newer sensor, more modern AF module and image processer and voila...a 2021 MF digital SLR.

A range of newer, weather sealed lenses would be nice...but that could come in time.
04-22-2021, 09:29 AM - 2 Likes   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveinSLC Quote
Those arts and academic organizations that are using Hassy or PhaseOne, they don't have the money to buy a whole new system.
I'm working at a major museum, a unit of the Smithsonian. We don't have Hassy or Phase stuff. That's why I'm dragging my own Z in! And there are lots and lots more like us. And for those who do have Phase stuff....some of that stuff is really long in the tooth now. The upgrade path is very, very steep.

QuoteQuote:
What they can do it get a better sensor into the existing 645 body, add IBIS and pixelshift, and improve computational photography capabilities. All of that shouldn't require new sensors or massive redesigns.
Well, you may need the new sensor, because the old one may not be in production any longer as far as we know
QuoteQuote:
And there will be people who choose Pentax over Fuji. Those who want an OVF. And those who actually like a bigger body. I don't get the fad of trying to make FF and MF bodies smaller. I want a sizable grip and good ergonomics to go with the larger lenses.
I am with you 100% there. It's an amateur thing, AFAIC.
04-22-2021, 09:53 AM - 2 Likes   #29
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Ricoh said they would keep the Q if they could find something to offer that would compete against cellphones. Like most companies, they didn't see anything that would work.

Medium format users aren't totally governed by convenience. There are a lot more options for Pentax. FF MF is one example. How about building the sensor ir filter in front of the mirror and making it removable like Sigma did on their DSLR? Cheap to do. Potent extra capability that would make people think twice when buying into a system. A few things like this could work wonders for the Z2. I'd sure be selling a kidney.

Thanks,
barondla
04-23-2021, 07:56 AM   #30
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Perhaps someone wants to volunteer to cut a hole in the back of there film 645 and stick this in there?

QHY461 medium format scientific cooled cmos camera with sony IMX461 sensor - scientific camera - QHYCCD Astronomical Cameras
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