Buying a Pentax 645Z in 2021

**barondla** · 07-09-2021, 09:35 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Jonathan Mac

I agree on the Fujifilm but I'm not aware of psychic abilities included with a 645Z purchase...

There is nothing to indicate that Fujifilm screwed up. Would a larger sensor offer better IQ? Of course it would, but that jump in size means a huge jump in cost and therefore a much narrower market share. The MF sensors used in current Pentax and Fujifilm MF cameras are the new standard for MF and there's nothing to suggest that will change. Pentax could have included a larger sensor in the D and the Z but they didn't because they know they'd have so few buyers they wouldn't make any money.

We don't know how huge the jump in cost would be. Not sure we can base it on Phase and Hasselblad offerings. Neither are known for being value leaders. I wouldn't predict ff costs on what Leica does either. Hassy and Phase charge what the market will pay. They are Macy's vs Pentax being Target or Walmart. Totally different business plans.

If Pentax looks to broaden the ff mf market they could order more sensors than Phase or Hasselblad. Sony will negotiate areduced price if more sensors are purchased. So they might be able to do something Phase and Hasselblad can't. Fujifilm could do the same thing except their no 35 ff plan makes it difficult. The jump from APS-C to ff mf might be too great to be effective.
Thanks,

barondla

Last edited by barondla; 07-09-2021 at 09:43 AM.

SFTphotography · 07-09-2021, 10:15 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by barondla

We don't know how huge the jump in cost would be. Not sure we can base it on Phase and Hasselblad offerings. Neither are known for being value leaders. I wouldn't predict ff costs on what Leica does either. Hassy and Phase charge what the market will pay. They are Macy's vs Pentax being Target or Walmart. Totally different business plans.

If Pentax looks to broaden the ff mf market they could order more sensors than Phase or Hasselblad. Sony will negotiate areduced price if more sensors are purchased. So they might be able to do something Phase and Hasselblad can't. Fujifilm could do the same thing except their no 35 ff plan makes it difficult. The jump from APS-C to ff mf might be too great to be effective.
Thanks,

barondla

Brass tacks - reckon a FF MF 150mp system would be retailing £12k - $15k USD. Massive and sadly beyond my reach - but not for very well heeled and skillful amateurs - who I reckon make practically all the Fuji GF market share and a massive chunk of Phase One/Hasselblad.

Most working pro's run around in battered old Canikons, I am lucky I actually have some of the best gear of any working pro in the UK

texandrews · 07-09-2021, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by SFTphotography

Brass tacks - reckon a FF MF 150mp system would be retailing £12k - $15k USD. Massive and sadly beyond my reach - but not for very well heeled and skillful amateurs - who I reckon make practically all the Fuji GF market share and a massive chunk of Phase One/Hasselblad.

Most working pro's run around in battered old Canikons, I am lucky I actually have some of the best gear of any working pro in the UK

Well...maybe so. Still remarkable considering---but I'm hopeful it might be less. I think wafer production has improved, maybe just enough to shave some money off that price.

SFTphotography · 07-09-2021, 01:08 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by texandrews

Well...maybe so. Still remarkable considering---but I'm hopeful it might be less. I think wafer production has improved, maybe just enough to shave some money off that price.

If they make a crop 100mp I will buy 2 and sell the 2 50mp bodies to help fund. If they make the 150mp I will just buy one given the massive cost or look at a financing package to do it or ask Pentax to supply it. They need a serious landscape photographer to be their ambassador here in the UK and I personally don't see why it shouldn't be me

. Given I am based in Scotland and in the finest of all the UK landscapes they should be building this camera just for me

. Given the 645z and indeed K1 series are really aimed at landscape photographers they should be peddalling the robustness, reliabilty and durability of their system over say a mirrorless one.

I cannot every see it really going for under £10,000 or $13000. And even that would be remarkable given the prices that Phase One and Hasselblad make. And even at this level it would be a loss maker, but would act as an important halo for their brand. A full frame system doesn't have the same appeal.

itshimitis · 07-09-2021, 03:10 PM

Do we know what kind of deal Phase One has made with Sony for the making of the FF 150mp sensor? Have they embargoed their use in other manufacturer's cameras? After Fuji undercutting everyone else, I wouldn't be surprised if they did have an embargo in place for a set period of time to protect their market.

Jonathan Mac · 07-10-2021, 05:23 AM

Originally posted by itshimitis

Do we know what kind of deal Phase One has made with Sony for the making of the FF 150mp sensor? Have they embargoed their use in other manufacturer's cameras? After Fuji undercutting everyone else, I wouldn't be surprised if they did have an embargo in place for a set period of time to protect their market.

I think that's very unlikely, Sony would charge them a fortune because of someone wanted to put it in a better value body then they'd stand to lose a lot by saying "no".

dlhawes · 07-10-2021, 05:26 AM

The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it.

**DonV** · 07-10-2021, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by dlhawes

The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it.

"just as good" - as what?

**TDvN57** · 07-10-2021, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by dlhawes

The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it.

You may be right or not, but I don't want to risk losing my fingers if I touch a Canon. :-)

On a more serious note, I am lost about the lure of an abundance of lenses.

If you can cover the whole range of focal lengths that you intend to cover, and the lenses you have are excellent and above average, passing a pixel peeping session, then what makes it so important to have an abundance of others, good and mediocre, and how does that make it a better brand, or make me a better photographer/artist?

If you know then please enlighten me.

SFTphotography · 07-10-2021, 06:21 AM

Originally posted by dlhawes

The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it.

And alas discontinued. The R5 is a good 5mp down, and more expensive than a 645z new. Which is madness really - unless you make video or shoot wildlife/weddings where the eye AF has some strong advantages. For non static subjects the 645z or 5ds/5dsr any day.

I've managed to track a new one down on eBay - an insurance replacement that was never used.

Dynamic range on the 5ds/5dsr isn't as good as the Pentax and the fine pixel pitch will mean it's just the best zooms and primes. I've seen/used one before so know what it's strengths and weaknesses are.

dlhawes · 07-10-2021, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by DonV

"just as good" - as what?

As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx.

itshimitis · 07-10-2021, 06:54 AM - **4 Likes**

Originally posted by dlhawes

As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx.

If megapixels is your criteria, my Samsung Note 20 Ultra is Medium Format - 108mp. There's so much more to it than mega pickles.

---------- Post added 07-10-21 at 06:55 AM ----------

Originally posted by Jonathan Mac

I think that's very unlikely, Sony would charge them a fortune because of someone wanted to put it in a better value body then they'd stand to lose a lot by saying "no".

I can see there being an embargo for a defined period of time as part of a contractual deal to give a brand exclusivity. Has happened in other parts of tech.

dlhawes · 07-10-2021, 07:09 AM

Originally posted by itshimitis

If megapixels is your criteria, my Samsung Note 20 Ultra is Medium Format - 108mp. There's so much more to it than mega pickles.

"Mega pickles"!!! I'll get some mileage out of that one!

You're right, of course, but things like convenience, price, and availability of good lenses are factors to be considered, too. Everything's a compromise of some sort, I reckon. Just a matter of personal priorities.

**DonV** · 07-10-2021, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by dlhawes

As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx.

I fail to see how a full frame size sensor can be a medium format; of course unless the definition of either full or medium format has changed.

**SteveinSLC** · 07-10-2021, 07:31 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by dlhawes

As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx.

Other than in terms of number of MP, not sure how this is so. Even the FF Sony sensors with fewer MP in the K-1 and D850 score significantly better than does the 5DSR in terms of dynamic range and noise. The A7R4 has more MP and better performance.

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07-09-2021, 09:35 AM - 1 Like	#136
barondla Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: midwest, United States Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,716	Originally posted by Jonathan Mac I agree on the Fujifilm but I'm not aware of psychic abilities included with a 645Z purchase... There is nothing to indicate that Fujifilm screwed up. Would a larger sensor offer better IQ? Of course it would, but that jump in size means a huge jump in cost and therefore a much narrower market share. The MF sensors used in current Pentax and Fujifilm MF cameras are the new standard for MF and there's nothing to suggest that will change. Pentax could have included a larger sensor in the D and the Z but they didn't because they know they'd have so few buyers they wouldn't make any money. We don't know how huge the jump in cost would be. Not sure we can base it on Phase and Hasselblad offerings. Neither are known for being value leaders. I wouldn't predict ff costs on what Leica does either. Hassy and Phase charge what the market will pay. They are Macy's vs Pentax being Target or Walmart. Totally different business plans. If Pentax looks to broaden the ff mf market they could order more sensors than Phase or Hasselblad. Sony will negotiate areduced price if more sensors are purchased. So they might be able to do something Phase and Hasselblad can't. Fujifilm could do the same thing except their no 35 ff plan makes it difficult. The jump from APS-C to ff mf might be too great to be effective. Thanks, barondla Last edited by barondla; 07-09-2021 at 09:43 AM.

07-09-2021, 10:15 AM - 1 Like	#137
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by barondla We don't know how huge the jump in cost would be. Not sure we can base it on Phase and Hasselblad offerings. Neither are known for being value leaders. I wouldn't predict ff costs on what Leica does either. Hassy and Phase charge what the market will pay. They are Macy's vs Pentax being Target or Walmart. Totally different business plans. If Pentax looks to broaden the ff mf market they could order more sensors than Phase or Hasselblad. Sony will negotiate areduced price if more sensors are purchased. So they might be able to do something Phase and Hasselblad can't. Fujifilm could do the same thing except their no 35 ff plan makes it difficult. The jump from APS-C to ff mf might be too great to be effective. Thanks, barondla Brass tacks - reckon a FF MF 150mp system would be retailing £12k - $15k USD. Massive and sadly beyond my reach - but not for very well heeled and skillful amateurs - who I reckon make practically all the Fuji GF market share and a massive chunk of Phase One/Hasselblad. Most working pro's run around in battered old Canikons, I am lucky I actually have some of the best gear of any working pro in the UK

07-09-2021, 01:02 PM	#138
texandrews Moderator Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Baltimore Photos: Albums Posts: 3,397	Originally posted by SFTphotography Brass tacks - reckon a FF MF 150mp system would be retailing £12k - $15k USD. Massive and sadly beyond my reach - but not for very well heeled and skillful amateurs - who I reckon make practically all the Fuji GF market share and a massive chunk of Phase One/Hasselblad. Most working pro's run around in battered old Canikons, I am lucky I actually have some of the best gear of any working pro in the UK Well...maybe so. Still remarkable considering---but I'm hopeful it might be less. I think wafer production has improved, maybe just enough to shave some money off that price.

07-09-2021, 01:08 PM - 1 Like	#139
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by texandrews Well...maybe so. Still remarkable considering---but I'm hopeful it might be less. I think wafer production has improved, maybe just enough to shave some money off that price. If they make a crop 100mp I will buy 2 and sell the 2 50mp bodies to help fund. If they make the 150mp I will just buy one given the massive cost or look at a financing package to do it or ask Pentax to supply it. They need a serious landscape photographer to be their ambassador here in the UK and I personally don't see why it shouldn't be me . Given I am based in Scotland and in the finest of all the UK landscapes they should be building this camera just for me . Given the 645z and indeed K1 series are really aimed at landscape photographers they should be peddalling the robustness, reliabilty and durability of their system over say a mirrorless one. I cannot every see it really going for under £10,000 or $13000. And even that would be remarkable given the prices that Phase One and Hasselblad make. And even at this level it would be a loss maker, but would act as an important halo for their brand. A full frame system doesn't have the same appeal.

07-09-2021, 03:10 PM	#140
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Do we know what kind of deal Phase One has made with Sony for the making of the FF 150mp sensor? Have they embargoed their use in other manufacturer's cameras? After Fuji undercutting everyone else, I wouldn't be surprised if they did have an embargo in place for a set period of time to protect their market.

07-10-2021, 05:23 AM	#141
Jonathan Mac Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Madrid, Spain Posts: 10,911	Originally posted by itshimitis Do we know what kind of deal Phase One has made with Sony for the making of the FF 150mp sensor? Have they embargoed their use in other manufacturer's cameras? After Fuji undercutting everyone else, I wouldn't be surprised if they did have an embargo in place for a set period of time to protect their market. I think that's very unlikely, Sony would charge them a fortune because of someone wanted to put it in a better value body then they'd stand to lose a lot by saying "no".

07-10-2021, 05:26 AM	#142
dlhawes Guest	The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it.

07-10-2021, 06:19 AM	#143
DonV Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Near Charlotte NC Photos: Albums Posts: 695	Originally posted by dlhawes The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it. "just as good" - as what?

07-10-2021, 06:20 AM	#144
TDvN57 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Berlin Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,150	Originally posted by dlhawes The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it. You may be right or not, but I don't want to risk losing my fingers if I touch a Canon. :-) On a more serious note, I am lost about the lure of an abundance of lenses. If you can cover the whole range of focal lengths that you intend to cover, and the lenses you have are excellent and above average, passing a pixel peeping session, then what makes it so important to have an abundance of others, good and mediocre, and how does that make it a better brand, or make me a better photographer/artist? If you know then please enlighten me.

07-10-2021, 06:21 AM	#145
SFTphotography Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Scotland Posts: 291	Originally posted by dlhawes The Canon 5DS-R is just as good, if not better, and there are zillions of lenses for it. And alas discontinued. The R5 is a good 5mp down, and more expensive than a 645z new. Which is madness really - unless you make video or shoot wildlife/weddings where the eye AF has some strong advantages. For non static subjects the 645z or 5ds/5dsr any day. I've managed to track a new one down on eBay - an insurance replacement that was never used. Dynamic range on the 5ds/5dsr isn't as good as the Pentax and the fine pixel pitch will mean it's just the best zooms and primes. I've seen/used one before so know what it's strengths and weaknesses are.

07-10-2021, 06:49 AM	#146
dlhawes Guest	Originally posted by DonV "just as good" - as what? As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx.

07-10-2021, 06:54 AM - 4 Likes	#147
itshimitis Pentaxian Join Date: May 2011 Location: All over the place Posts: 3,535	Originally posted by dlhawes As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx. If megapixels is your criteria, my Samsung Note 20 Ultra is Medium Format - 108mp. There's so much more to it than mega pickles. ---------- Post added 07-10-21 at 06:55 AM ---------- Originally posted by Jonathan Mac I think that's very unlikely, Sony would charge them a fortune because of someone wanted to put it in a better value body then they'd stand to lose a lot by saying "no". I can see there being an embargo for a defined period of time as part of a contractual deal to give a brand exclusivity. Has happened in other parts of tech.

07-10-2021, 07:09 AM	#148
dlhawes Guest	Originally posted by itshimitis If megapixels is your criteria, my Samsung Note 20 Ultra is Medium Format - 108mp. There's so much more to it than mega pickles. "Mega pickles"!!! I'll get some mileage out of that one! You're right, of course, but things like convenience, price, and availability of good lenses are factors to be considered, too. Everything's a compromise of some sort, I reckon. Just a matter of personal priorities.

07-10-2021, 07:14 AM	#149
DonV Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Near Charlotte NC Photos: Albums Posts: 695	Originally posted by dlhawes As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx. I fail to see how a full frame size sensor can be a medium format; of course unless the definition of either full or medium format has changed.

07-10-2021, 07:31 AM - 1 Like	#150
SteveinSLC Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2017 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 568	Originally posted by dlhawes As the medium format camera the thread is about. The 5DS-R is basically a medium format cameras in a DSLR, 50+Mpx. Other than in terms of number of MP, not sure how this is so. Even the FF Sony sensors with fewer MP in the K-1 and D850 score significantly better than does the 5DSR in terms of dynamic range and noise. The A7R4 has more MP and better performance.