[kaseki]

Rick "mostly absent for many months but seeing the conversations haven't really changed much" Denney

Thanks for popping up and updating us on which side of the grass you are shooting from.

[acoulter]

I’m delighted by this conversation. I bought a 645D and 645Z in 2021. I have my D up for sale on the forum right now but if it doesn’t sell I’ve decided I’m forever set with these two bodies.

I’ve shot nearly every Sony, Fuji and Canon in the race to try what is new but at the end of the day, the Pentax 645 system makes me happiest. It’s about not only the image quality but the ergonomics and robust nature of the bodies that prompts me to choose Pentax over all the other manufacturers. I shoot family and doc style work and find it’s just as capable as anything I’ll ever need.

[mtkeller]

Compare the price of the Pentax 28 - 45 and the 32 - 64 Fuji. Massive difference even when there aren't offers on - which there are at the moment. I paid £1800 for mine in an open box deal right now it is £1719 brand new. The 28-45 is £4400. The 32 - 64 is lighter and every bit as sharp. It's also slightly faster at f/4. Pentax will have to compete on lens prices also. What I am also seeing is that new Pentax 645 lenses are harder to find. Only second hand available at most dealers. So, with respect, R Denney, Fuji lenses are being sold new at the same price as reasonably well used Pentax. Yes there are more lenses available for Pentax, but more lenses can be adapted to the Fuji. The FA 75 adapts very well indeed.

I get the impression that individual photographers don’t buy new Pentax 645 lenses. I grabbed a used 28–45 from KEH right after Black Friday, when they were running 10% off and a one-year warranty. They had it listed for under US$2000 so I paid under US$1800. It’s in outstanding condition.

[rdenney]

Somebody bought it, or preowned examples wouldn’t exist.

Maybe those who buy new aren’t into forums.

Rick “who avoids forums in his profession—too much like work” Denney

[SFTphotography]

Somebody bought it, or preowned examples wouldn’t exist.

Maybe those who buy new aren’t into forums.

Rick “who avoids forums in his profession—too much like work” Denney

I bought a new 28-45 but got a deal so only paid £3300 for it.

[texandrews]

If you are only buying new, then the Fuji system may be cheaper. But with the Fuji system, you almost (not quite) have to but new, as the used market is not developed. Of course that will change in the future, but it's still years away. Yes, lenses can be adapted more easily from all brands, but I've never encountered an adapted lens that works as well as it does on its native mount, manual lenses excluded (somewhat...).


With Pentax you have the option of a very rich used market or new in native glass. To me this seems preferable. And then there's the major difference of mirrorless vs optical. With Pentax, I can use live view or have optical. With Fuji you can only have electronic view. This is meaningful to some people.

[SFTphotography]

Compare the price of the Pentax 28 - 45 and the 32 - 64 Fuji. Massive difference even when there aren't offers on - which there are at the moment. I paid £1800 for mine in an open box deal right now it is £1719 brand new. The 28-45 is £4400. The 32 - 64 is lighter and every bit as sharp. It's also slightly faster at f/4. Pentax will have to compete on lens prices also. What I am also seeing is that new Pentax 645 lenses are harder to find. Only second hand available at most dealers. So, with respect, R Denney, Fuji lenses are being sold new at the same price as reasonably well used Pentax. Yes there are more lenses available for Pentax, but more lenses can be adapted to the Fuji. The FA 75 adapts very well indeed.

I paid £3300 for a new 28-45 in December 2020. It came right before the transition period ended from a UK seller based in the Netherlands.

From a sample image I saw of the Fuji 32-64 the corners looked quite smeary on both sides whereas the Pentax is uniformily sharp, centre to edge. Centre to edge sharpness is vital for landscape photography.

It could have been a bad sample of the Fuji but tbh that was another aspect that swung in favour of the Pentax over the Fuji system.


Although I have to say a Fuji 100-200 would suit me well, I can always change systems later or run more than one.

[TDvN57]

Although I have to say a Fuji 100-200 would suit me well, I can always change systems later or run more than one.

I think you'll get better value for money with the Pentax 150-300mm which is also f5.6, same as Fuji 100-200.

Personally I've found a 200mm lens you be an odd focal length in mf. It's too short to be a telephoto and too long to be a portrait lens. Neither fish nor fowl as they say.

Just saying....

[SFTphotography]

I think you'll get better value for money with the Pentax 150-300mm which is also f5.6, same as Fuji 100-200.

Personally I've found a 200mm lens you be an odd focal length in mf. It's too short to be a telephoto and too long to be a portrait lens. Neither fish nor fowl as they say.

Just saying....

Depends on the field of view. Optically I've heard mixed views on the 150-300 but I might pick one up off eBay - saying as they are relatively inexpensive and already have 2 645z's....

---------- Post added 06-01-21 at 07:27 AM ----------

If you are only buying new, then the Fuji system may be cheaper. But with the Fuji system, you almost (not quite) have to but new, as the used market is not developed. Of course that will change in the future, but it's still years away. Yes, lenses can be adapted more easily from all brands, but I've never encountered an adapted lens that works as well as it does on its native mount, manual lenses excluded (somewhat...).


With Pentax you have the option of a very rich used market or new in native glass. To me this seems preferable. And then there's the major difference of mirrorless vs optical. With Pentax, I can use live view or have optical. With Fuji you can only have electronic view. This is meaningful to some people.

Very meaningful. I really love the big brighter view finder in the 645z. It's a joy to look down.

[johnha]

I bought a used 645D a couple of years ago when they became 'affordable', in hindsight I should have bought a new one when they were heavily discounted after the Z was released. Used Z's at the time were not 'affordable'.

Lens wise my widest is the 33-55 (mixed reviews but I'm happy). The 28-45 is hugely expensive, big & heavy. Before the 33-55 I appreciated the 45-85 a lot more than I expected. My usual travel lenses are the 33-55 and either the FA80-160 or 67 200 with the SDM 55 if I want WR.

The Fuji wasn't available/affordable at the time, but by sticking with Pentax I saved with accessories. From using the 67 lenses I had, same batteries/chargers, IR remotes, flashguns, the O-GPS1 and there's no need for a $$$ L bracket. All of these were really helpful in establishing my system and making it 'affordable'.

[barondla]

Pentax has advantages over the mirrorless competition. The ability to use optical viewfinder or liveview has already been mentioned. Pentax loves the SLR viewfinder.

Pentax also needs to play up the retro-ness of mechanical focusing. Focus by wire has some serious drawbacks. Some of the Fujifilm lenses have a very weak motor and can't autofocus with a Lee/Cokin type holder and filter. Fine, just use manual focus. Nope, same motor provides manual focusing. Also seeing reports of focus creep, between frames, when lenses are set to manual focus. Happening even when lens is horizontal and apparently has nothing to do with gravity. So multi image star trails, panoramic, intervalometer, and other shots are much more difficult or impossible. Not a plus in a professional system.

Thanks,

barondla

[Edmunds]

Well, here's an update.

Long story short, I bought it!

Couple of thoughts of mine:

The whole "its OK not to have an ultra wide angle because you don't really need it" excuse is extremely poor, and not just because people in forums making excuses for their favorite camera manufacturer makes my eyes bleed, but because there are plenty of reasons to have and use an ultra wide angle. My last 3 trips were to Iceland, the Balkans and Italy, and I found plenty of uses for ultra wide angles - vast mountains, narrow canyons, hiker standing on the edge of a cliff, a up close waterfalls, seaside cliffs, turquoise beach waters, seaside jetties, hiking paths meandering into the distance, tiny orthodox church interiors, and the list goes on.

The wide angle lenses change the value proposition of the whole system. Discontinuation of the 25mm f/4 is completely baffling. The pricing of the 28-45mm is from a bygone era. The only choice is to buy used, but alas, since they are quite rare and expensive new, there's not much choice. The last two used 28-45mm in the EU sold for €1500, which quite frankly isn't bad and I would be willing to pay that, but there simply aren't any for sale. I will just have to wait. Right now, it would actually be cheaper to order used from USA, pay 6.7% import duty and 21% VAT. And this is the case not just for wide angles, but for lots of lenses. Clearly, the availability and the prices of used Pentax gear is vastly different in USA. This has to be taken into account when comparing systems before making a buying choice.

The people who say "the 645Z is still the best for xxxxx", well, to put it bluntly - no, it isn't. The used prices for this gear tell an objective, ruthless story. Undoubtedly, there will be people here eschewing the merits of this system to their dying breath probably a decade from now, however, the rest of the world has basically moved on.


The reasons I bought it:

1) Depreciation has, for the most part, already happened. I can always ebay it and I will lose maybe a couple of hundred euros.

2) Always wanted a medium format. And there it was, in front of me, all I had to do was part with the cash in my pocket. There wasn't really anything to lose.

3) Camera is large, but ergonomics are excellent, no problem using it hand held. Buttons are all where they need to be. Camera speed is satisfactory. 3fps is enough for anything I'd use it for. AF is subpar, but completely workable, I like center point AF best anyway.

4) The 55mm 2.8 lens delivers the exact field of view I was expecting and what I want.

5) Bar the wide angle, all the other lenses I'd buy are pretty cheap. If you don't need the 25, 28-45 or the 90, the value proposition of the whole 645 camera system is fantastic. Comparing used prices you'd have to fork out massively more for a Fuji GFX system and even full frame would be more expensive (if you look at the options near 50MP and lenses to match that). For now I will just make do with the FA 35mm as my widest option.

6) My main camera is an Olympus E-M1 II, which is a fantastic travel camera. This camera complements it really well when I want to do hi-res landscapes.

[itshimitis]

Well, here's an update.

Long story short, I bought it!

Couple of thoughts of mine:

The whole "its OK not to have an ultra wide angle because you don't really need it" excuse is extremely poor, and not just because people in forums making excuses for their favorite camera manufacturer makes my eyes bleed, but because there are plenty of reasons to have and use an ultra wide angle. My last 3 trips were to Iceland, the Balkans and Italy, and I found plenty of uses for ultra wide angles - vast mountains, narrow canyons, hiker standing on the edge of a cliff, a up close waterfalls, seaside cliffs, turquoise beach waters, seaside jetties, hiking paths meandering into the distance, tiny orthodox church interiors, and the list goes on.

The wide angle lenses change the value proposition of the whole system. Discontinuation of the 25mm f/4 is completely baffling. The pricing of the 28-45mm is from a bygone era. The only choice is to buy used, but alas, since they are quite rare and expensive new, there's not much choice. The last two used 28-45mm in the EU sold for €1500, which quite frankly isn't bad and I would be willing to pay that, but there simply aren't any for sale. I will just have to wait. Right now, it would actually be cheaper to order used from USA, pay 6.7% import duty and 21% VAT. And this is the case not just for wide angles, but for lots of lenses. Clearly, the availability and the prices of used Pentax gear is vastly different in USA. This has to be taken into account when comparing systems before making a buying choice.

The people who say "the 645Z is still the best for xxxxx", well, to put it bluntly - no, it isn't. The used prices for this gear tell an objective, ruthless story. Undoubtedly, there will be people here eschewing the merits of this system to their dying breath probably a decade from now, however, the rest of the world has basically moved on.


The reasons I bought it:

1) Depreciation has, for the most part, already happened. I can always ebay it and I will lose maybe a couple of hundred euros.

2) Always wanted a medium format. And there it was, in front of me, all I had to do was part with the cash in my pocket. There wasn't really anything to lose.

3) Camera is large, but ergonomics are excellent, no problem using it hand held. Buttons are all where they need to be. Camera speed is satisfactory. 3fps is enough for anything I'd use it for. AF is subpar, but completely workable, I like center point AF best anyway.

4) The 55mm 2.8 lens delivers the exact field of view I was expecting and what I want.

5) Bar the wide angle, all the other lenses I'd buy are pretty cheap. If you don't need the 25, 28-45 or the 90, the value proposition of the whole 645 camera system is fantastic. Comparing used prices you'd have to fork out massively more for a Fuji GFX system and even full frame would be more expensive (if you look at the options near 50MP and lenses to match that). For now I will just make do with the FA 35mm as my widest option.

6) My main camera is an Olympus E-M1 II, which is a fantastic travel camera. This camera complements it really well when I want to do hi-res landscapes.

Ffordes in Scotland have two 28-45 available at £1899. They have always been excellent to deal with, family firm who used to be in Sussex but moved to Inverness-shire some years ago. Their EXC++ rating mirrors mint- of other dealers.

28-45mm F4.5 DA ED AW SR

They also have a 55 f/2.8 for £499.99

55mm F2.8 FA AL SDM AW

Oh and I agree with you. Stitching two 'normal' angle of view images together to make an UWA is not the same.

[Edmunds]

Ffordes in Scotland have two 28-45 available at £1899. They have always been excellent to deal with, family firm who used to be in Sussex but moved to Inverness-shire some years ago. Their EXC++ rating mirrors mint- of other dealers.

28-45mm F4.5 DA ED AW SR

They also have a 55 f/2.8 for £499.99

55mm F2.8 FA AL SDM AW

Oh and I agree with you. Stitching two 'normal' angle of view images together to make an UWA is not the same.

I'm in the EU, so AFAIK, I would have to pay 6.7% import and 21% VAT on these
Also, the last 2 of these on ebay sold for €1500. And there is one on US ebay for $2150 and nobody's buying it.



I got the DFA 55mm f2.8 and FA 35mm f3.5 as part of the deal!

[DonV]

Edmunds,
show us some of your ultra-wide pictures, and do let us know which lens you used.
I'm sure it would help understand your point.