[RobA_Oz]

The unspoken premise of this thread is that sales of the 645Z have diminished to the point where Ricoh needs to do something about the line. Is there any hard data to support this? It strikes me that the only hard evidence of anything is the appearance of the Fujifilm competition, and the lack of anything new from Ricoh.

Regardless of that, I don't see that the development of a revised 645Z with a larger sensor would be a huge impost on the Pentax budget. There would be some concomitant changes to the support electronics and firmware, but hardly anything like the effort required for the K-3iii, which was essentially a completely new camera.

[dbs]

How long was between the D and the Z and from the Z till now ?
Maybe a new one is just around the corner

[biz-engineer]

The unspoken premise of this thread is that sales of the 645Z have diminished to the point where Ricoh needs to do something about the line. Is there any hard data to support this?

Fuji took the same sensor of the 645z, stuck onto a PCB into a metal box (GFX50R with CDAF) , promoted it in youtube, social media, in workshops by paid ambassadors, and it sold like hot cakes (much more than 645z). I was told Fuji 50R is totally new tech, not like the 645Z. BTW, the guys didn't know the existence of Pentax 645 before reviewing and promoting the 50R. New = exiting. Existing gear = not exciting.

The guys at Photography Online have compared the Canon 5DSr images with Canon EOS R5 (using same lenses, manually focused), the 5DSr came out resolving more detail than the EOS R5. But, guess what, the EOS R5 is new = better, because it's new.

[Lord Lucan]

I never look at the corner of a picture, I always look at the subject. ...... I take in the whole image and only complain if the subject is blurred. And if the subject is sharp the background adds to the sharpness of the subject and in fact emphasizes the subject by being a bit less sharp. Is not that why lenses are also valued for the bokeh they produce?

You have described a certain style of photograph, one which is to your liking. You are entitled to your preference, which is is one I can share if the subject is portraiture, but not everyone is the same. My main interests are landscape, architecture, and technical subjects. and I do look at the corners of pictures. I have no interest in bokeh.

[RobA_Oz]

Fuji took the same sensor of the 645z, stuck onto a PCB into a metal box (GFX50R with CDAF) , promoted it in youtube, social media, in workshops by paid ambassadors, and it sold like hot cakes (much more than 645z). I was told Fuji 50R is totally new tech, not like the 645Z. BTW, the guys didn't know the existence of Pentax 645 before reviewing and promoting the 50R. New = exiting. Existing gear = not exciting.

The guys at Photography Online have compared the Canon 5DSr images with Canon EOS R5 (using same lenses, manually focused), the 5DSr came out resolving more detail than the EOS R5. But, guess what, the EOS R5 is new = better, because it's new.

I would have thought that the market for any MF camera would consist of people with a more sober view of such expenditure than the average watcher of “influencer” videos, but I could always be wrong there. I regard those urgers with the same scepticism that I direct towards internet adverts that talk about a product “flying off the shelves”.

I’d still like to know some verifiable sales figures for both systems. In spite of that, I do think it’s high time there was something definite from Ricoh on this subject. Abandoning the format would be a much larger blow to the prestige of the brand than occurred with the Q system.

[Rondec]

I don't think the 645 line has much value at this point as a stand alone endeavor. I doubt that any of the current camera brands would be interested in it. Would Nikon or Canon be interested? Doubtful, considering that they seem fully on board with mirrorless as a way forward.

I still think there is a decent possibility that Ricoh releases another 645 camera, sharing tech with the K-3 III. The issue, of course, is that everything is slow and likely the K-1 III will come out first. I also remain convinced that they are waffling on whether to do in body image stabilization with the 645 line, or to go with a larger medium format sensor. The second is more likely, if their current lens line up would cover it. It is the sort of move that Fuji couldn't match, while Fuji already has image stabilization in body with their 100 model.

[itshimitis]

I don't think the 645 line has much value at this point as a stand alone endeavor. I doubt that any of the current camera brands would be interested in it. Would Nikon or Canon be interested? Doubtful, considering that they seem fully on board with mirrorless as a way forward.

I still think there is a decent possibility that Ricoh releases another 645 camera, sharing tech with the K-3 III. The issue, of course, is that everything is slow and likely the K-1 III will come out first. I also remain convinced that they are waffling on whether to do in body image stabilization with the 645 line, or to go with a larger medium format sensor. The second is more likely, if their current lens line up would cover it. It is the sort of move that Fuji couldn't match, while Fuji already has image stabilization in body with their 100 model.

I think the former is far more likely. Why would they make 2 current, expensive lenses obsolete in one fell swoop.

[biz-engineer]

I would have thought that the market for any MF camera would consist of people with a more sober view of such expenditure than the average watcher of “influencer” videos

Well, DPReview medium format forum is basically "owned" by Fuji, Pentax = ignore, Phase One = ignore. If someone point out the existence of Pentax 645z, people will reply "Pentax lenses are not sharp" even if they never used a Pentax camera in their entire life time. I've watched a video review about the Fuji 50R, the guy never used medium format before, he talks as if Fuji 50R is the only camera in the world. I guess it's what's called marketing. This reminds me blinders beside the eyes of carriage horses so that they don't see what not right in front of them. It's like "ohhhhh this Fuji medium format is the best!" "Have you every considered Pentax?" "No , what is Pentax?" "Well, the sensor in your Fuji was designed by Pentax" , "no way, the Fuji 51Mp sensor is much newer and better".

[repaap]

I think that it would be very hard for Ricoh to not to develope a new era 645 with mirror(with K-3III AF) just as there will be one for 35 mm format too. It was not so long since there was a rumour of putting new 645 on hold, because it would have been too expensive compared to new Fuji. Where they did go way below even their previous 100 model.

Dunno, maybe they will hone it up and also price? (12000€ rumour) and go head to head with Fuji?

Thinking about it, it is quite likely that there will not be bigger sensor.

Saying that K-3III is a niche, it is. It also seem to be selling quite well. Improved AF with eye AF, would sertainly make some interest. Pentax don’t have to ’compete’ with mirrorless FF line. Fuji has to, they want to.

Strenghts for Pentax is that mirror, good old medium format feel(a real camera with great handling) give a bit more of OVF and better performance and excellent image quality. As well as couple of brand new lenses, guys who like the system, will buy. More so, some old fans will like it.

[Wasp]

I can't see why anybody would buy the rights to the 645Z line. Apart from the lens mount, the cupboard is very bare. The body is rather long in the tooth.

As for Sony, they have a very large camera division and can cook up their own MF solution if they feel like it. If they do it is unlikely to have a flapping mirror inside.

Ricoh will probably put a new sensor into the 645Z and call it the 645Z II in years to come. Or not.

It is still selling and Ricoh might as well keep it going for the halo effect.

[AfterPentax Mark II]

You have described a certain style of photograph, one which is to your liking. You are entitled to your preference, which is is one I can share if the subject is portraiture, but not everyone is the same. My main interests are landscape, architecture, and technical subjects. and I do look at the corners of pictures. I have no interest in bokeh.

I did not describe how I make a picture, but how I look at a picture. And you as the photographer may want corner to corner sharpness, but as a spectator I look at the image as a whole and the view of the spectator is attracted by the subject. So I do not inspect whether the corners are sharp or not, it is not important. Even with landscapes and architecture you have a subject which to focus on, because I do not expect the photographer to shoot randomly. There must be something that attracted the eye of the photographer and that is what I want to see in the picture.

[Thwyllo]

I can't see why anybody would buy the rights to the 645Z line. Apart from the lens mount, the cupboard is very bare. The body is rather long in the tooth.

As for Sony, they have a very large camera division and can cook up their own MF solution if they feel like it. If they do it is unlikely to have a flapping mirror inside.

Ricoh will probably put a new sensor into the 645Z and call it the 645Z II in years to come. Or not.

It is still selling and Ricoh might as well keep it going for the halo effect.

Couldn't agree more. The market for large format cameras has always been very small, that's why they are ridiculously expensive. They aren't proportionately better, it's just that R&D, production and marketing costs have to be amortised across way fewer units, so buyers have to pay through the nose for such equipment. Simple economics and with the camera market contracting as it is it will only get worse; higher prices and longer upgrade cycles.

It's all been said before but in the longer term only the Nikons and Canons (and maybe Panasonic) of this world are likely to survive, along with the likes of Leica which has sold its soul to the devil with umpteen badge marketing deals, allowing you to buy the photographic equivalent of a Mexican Beetle (in the form of a 'Leica' lens made in a PANASONIC factory).

[kaseki]

Here is the simulator I used for DoF/CoC/print size evaluation: Advanced Depth Of Field (DoF) Calculator | PhotoPills
CoC = 0.014 (14um) = f/14 (hairy disk ~14um) => print size A1 at 15" viewing distance.

While Sir George Airy was certainly hirsute, few likely called him hairy.

Thanks for the calculator link.

[stevebrot]

So, if Ricoh decides to discontinue medium format

That is the big IF, the premise being that success of the GFX means sales going to it from whatever segment has been buying the Z all this time. Of course, that presumes the larger question of who has been buying the Z. Hopefully, it has not been just hobbyists!


Steve

(...equating the Q with the Z ignores that the latter is designed for professional use...)

[Not a Number]

I don't know if you would want Sony to take over the 645. They did effectively kill the Alpha mount eventually after acquiring Konica Minolta.cameras.