Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
08-26-2021, 11:16 AM   #16
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
StiffLegged's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2018
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,560
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Also, this is my favourite video on the subject.
Bridging the Gap: Classical Art Designed for Photographers - YouTube
+1. I found him very helpful in analysing what I liked about a composition - afterwards! I prefer to find a subject or arrangement that interests, rather than trying to fit a scene into any particular composition method, but there’s always the various ideas and methods in the back of my mind.

Except the Law of Thurds. Yawn yawn.

08-26-2021, 11:25 AM   #17
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
+1. I found him very helpful in analysing what I liked about a composition - afterwards! I prefer to find a subject or arrangement that interests, rather than trying to fit a scene into any particular composition method, but there’s always the various ideas and methods in the back of my mind.

Except the Law of Thurds. Yawn yawn.
I believe Pop Photography highlights 11 guideslines. Only one is the rule of thirds, it gets way too much attention.
08-26-2021, 11:27 AM - 2 Likes   #18
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2015
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 12,178
I like leading lines in photos.
08-26-2021, 12:05 PM - 1 Like   #19
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2016
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,722
For me the best way to think more about composition was to watch youtube videos of photographers that talk about their composition and what adjustments they're making. Everyone has their style and approach, and I was lucky to find a few that resonated with me. That process of fine-tuning, as opposed to looking and analyzing the final image, was super informative because it's not prescriptive, you get a feel for what "good" or "bad" is, and where your preference is. Rules are useful for post-mortem analysis, but compositions that work require attention to many more subtle details.

08-26-2021, 12:05 PM   #20
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I like leading lines in photos.
Incorporating curves can be great too.
08-26-2021, 12:24 PM   #21
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
ramseybuckeye's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hampstead, NC
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 17,277
I think there is some importance to the rule of thirds, sometimes when composing a picture I will think of rule of thirds and notice it is already using it, or recompose to see what it would look like with stronger adherence to the "rule", usually the composition is already following it or it looks better without following it, sometimes its, oh yea, better. But sometimes you may compose a certain way to include something that balances the scene better, or tells more of a story, and sometimes a goal is to not include something in the photo.
08-28-2021, 12:58 PM   #22
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
my favourite rule of composition is "make sure the subject's face leads the eye into the largest area inside of the frame never outside the frame".






People like to have as much sense of where the subject is looking as possible, or if movement is happening, where they are going.













It's so long ago I learned it I don't remember where it came from. My dad? My portrait studio instructor? My commercial studio studio instructor, anyway, one of those guys. It's much more important than the rule of thirds, at least for me anyway. For me, the rule of thirds is more cropping technique. But looking through my images, it is important to very few.
The rule of thirds is one "suggestion." I suspect it's the only one a lot of people know. Otherwise they wouldn't emphasize it so much.

My students used to have to hand in a series of images that emphasized every guideline, just to make sure they didn't get too focussed on the rule of thirds.


Be aware of them all, be ready to discard all that don't apply in every image. Notice, the rule of thirds isn't highlighted. It's not special, just one of 16 and if you use it more than 1/5th of the time, your work will be repetitive. There are so any different ones, it's impossible to incorporate them all into one image, but two or three are possible. But, you're always going to ignore more than you incorporate.

The less intelligent students would just take a bunch of pictures they liked and then ask me which rule they illustrated to they could hand them in for the assignment. The smarter ones figured it out themselves. But my favourite picture of my 25 years teaching, was taken by one of the dumber ones. It's like they took good pictures and then asked me to explain why they liked them.

My main emphasis in these exercises was to show them there are lots of different ways of composing an image, with no one being better than the others. That puts my ex-students ahead of 95% of internet bloggers. Favorite? If you have a favourite, you will always be in danger of repetitive work. You want appropriate to the image.


Last edited by normhead; 08-29-2021 at 05:29 AM.
08-28-2021, 08:23 PM   #23
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 11,694
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The less intelligent students would just take a bunch of pictures they liked and then ask me which rule they illustrated to they could hand them in for the assignment. The smarter one figured it out themselves. But my favourite picture of my 25 years teaching, was taken by one of the dumber ones. It's like they took good pictures and then sked me to explain why they liked them.
Reminds me of when I was a student oh so many years ago, I had a grumpy studio teacher who called me an insufferable know-it-all. Though he greatly appreciated the simplicity and directness of my work, for one class we were assigned to work with colour contrast, here is the final photo I handed in:

I had to rummage through my archive to find the film scan:



Konica Hexar RF - Konika Hexanon-M 90mm f/2.8 - Fuji Provia 400F*. Taken Circa 2004


* Looking back on the scan ISO 400 transparency films look like crap, Files from the Pentax K1 doesn't look quite this bad until ISO 12800.

Last edited by Digitalis; 08-28-2021 at 08:40 PM.
08-29-2021, 02:22 AM   #24
dlhawes
Guest




QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Reminds me of when I was a student oh so many years ago, ...
Me, too, though I was thinking back to my first year of college as a 'cello major, piano minor. My 'cello teacher complained that I was too impatient to learn proper technique; he said that was all I needed to work on at that stage of my development as a 'cellist. He was right, and I never became a real 'cellist.
What I've learned subsequently in other fields, when you get so good at the technique that you don't have to think about it, you just know it, then you're free to do whatever you want. A deep understanding of the principles that the practice of proper technique inculcates in the mind is what allows artistic freedom.
08-29-2021, 02:37 AM   #25
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2015
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,305
Rules of composition are useful if you learn and understand how they "feel" so that you can exploit composition to adjust the expression of the image. Across a series of photos a coherent proportional system can solidify the series and juxtaposed or mixed compositions can enhance the depth of the subject.
08-29-2021, 02:40 AM - 1 Like   #26
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Melbourne, Victoria
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 11,694
QuoteOriginally posted by dlhawes Quote
What I've learned subsequently in other fields, when you get so good at the technique that you don't have to think about it, you just know it, then you're free to do whatever you want. A deep understanding of the principles that the practice of proper technique inculcates in the mind is what allows artistic freedom.
This echoes a comment made by my orchestral flute teacher I had a few years ago: "true skill is effortless". My own flute studies have proven this to be true - I can perform works now that I wouldn't have had the nerve to even attempt earlier in my music studies because I developed solid technical groundwork.
08-31-2021, 07:58 AM   #27
Junior Member




Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 25
Many people like the statement "learn the rules and then break them" - so what is the point of learning them? Will a viewer look at a final image and say something along the lines of " My goodness, that image is so poorly constructed, the creator must REALLY know the rules !

Are we individual creative photographers ? I would hope so. But the focus on 'rules' by cut and paste educators means many new photographers look for the 'safe space' that is conformance rather than experiment.
08-31-2021, 08:27 AM   #28
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2015
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,305
Well its common in design to see rules as a kind of letters in a language. They are sort of archetypes that one can compose (hehe) into complete works. The rules are shorthands or understood positions. One can then think and talk about the work from these known positions as well as execute, consider and communicate hybrids and in between states.
08-31-2021, 08:40 AM   #29
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 40,442
QuoteOriginally posted by steve bastiman Quote
Many people like the statement "learn the rules and then break them" - so what is the point of learning them? Will a viewer look at a final image and say something along the lines of " My goodness, that image is so poorly constructed, the creator must REALLY know the rules !

Are we individual creative photographers ? I would hope so. But the focus on 'rules' by cut and paste educators means many new photographers look for the 'safe space' that is conformance rather than experiment.
That's a hyperbolic misunderstanding.
Images are good or not on their own. The "rules" apply to many circumstances but not all. Knowing when to apply and not apply the rules is the key. By paying attention to them, you can enhance an image. For the most parts they are points of emphasis.

One centre of interest, it doesn't work here.


Strong diagonal line emphasizing the subject works here. "Lines of direction," but you have to see the possibility and look for the right spot to take the image from.


Repetition/rythm works here.
But not here.

But not here


Fractals are appealing without following any particular rule.


It's more along, the lines of "I'm taking this image, is there any way I can alter my composition to make it visually stronger by moving my camera position one way or the other a bit?" You look to see if there are any rules that might apply. But if there aren't any you still take the picture. Some images don't need to be visually stronger, they just rock the way they are.

But, at times, they are extraordinary, just because they break the rules.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-6S54B7VCgb0/VrtMVMa-cAI/AAAAAAAAAXk/fhMzs...tography_4.jpg

Why you break the rules is irrelevant. Maybe you know what you're doing, maybe you don't. No one judges whether or not they like a photograph based on whether or not they follow the rules. Most people don't even know them. Hell, most of you guys don't even know them.

You can see and take a good image without knowing the rules, but you can't augment a relatively uninteresting image, like the photographers on the deck above, unless you have some idea what you're doing and are keeping an eye open for rules that can be successfully applied.

Last edited by normhead; 08-31-2021 at 08:57 AM.
08-31-2021, 08:56 AM - 1 Like   #30
Pentaxian
Dartmoor Dave's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Dartmoor, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,857
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that people have either got an instinctive feel for composition, or they don't. For those who don't, there are rules that they can learn. But you can always spot the people who are blindly following the rules. . . because they always follow the rules.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, 645z, camera, composition, conclusion, grid, harmony, lines, medium format, note, overlay, rule, rules, symmetry, thirds, zone
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How useful are reflective soft boxes? bladerunner6 Flashes, Lighting, and Studio 21 12-15-2020 01:09 PM
Useful Youtube tutorials on RawTherapee post-processing c.a.m Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 9 05-25-2020 08:00 PM
Zoos: your thoughts about them and how useful for photography? aslyfox General Talk 64 05-03-2020 03:39 PM
Useful diagram to share redcat General Photography 10 04-23-2020 01:33 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:40 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top