Is it time to ditch the SD card concept?

GregL65 · 11-16-2021, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by TDvN57

A built in SSD solves a lot of issues, the biggest advantage would be no need for a large buffer because the SSD can write fast enough.

CFexpress cards use the same PCIe interface used by the fastest SSD cards. Like M.2 NVME SSDs they are many times faster than flash storage. The reason CFexpress cards exist is to solve this problem.

Geyst · 11-16-2021, 09:39 AM

An SD card is in fact an SSD, the difference is the connection to the microprocessor.
A PC SSD has Sata or PIC or PCI express connection to the mother board.

normhead · 11-16-2021, 09:47 AM

I generally tend to limit my usage of SD cards to 8 GB. More than that stresses my import software.

Pentaph · 11-16-2021, 10:12 AM

SD card, at lest the later high speed SD card is good enough for still image photography, even if you do high speed continuous machine gun shooting, the limit is the processor/ RAM on camera but not on writing speed or storage space.
But for video, I can understand SD card is not the best option. CF card is so awful to mount but is faster in general and is still used on some camera. My blackmagic cinema camera needs an SSD drive, good thing is you can change the ssd any time.

OldDogTricks · 11-16-2021, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by TDvN57

Just watched a review of the new Mavic III drone with Hassie 4/3 camera and no removable storage.

According to the reviewer it has a 1tb SSD built into the camera. To make it practical the camera connects with USB-C.

I've wondered about this concept for some time now and I recall a short discussion about as well here on the forum.

But realistically, if we can enable ourselves to temporarily let go of what we find as must-haves in a system and consider what new technology offers, then it opens up new horizons. For example if there was a SSD solution available at the beginning stages of digital cameras, would they have ever considered a small removable cartridge, eg SD card?

A built in SSD solves a lot of issues, the biggest advantage would be no need for a large buffer because the SSD can write fast enough.

With regard to reliability, well my MS-Surface has a 1tb SSD built into the motherboard and it is still working everyday.

If reliability is a serious concern, perhaps a second 1 or 2tb SSD also built in could solve that concern as well.

Transferring data off of the camera with USB-C is fast and there are various options available such as a laptop, or a storage unit with the smarts to dump the incoming data onto a SSD and/or plugin drives. There are a couple of these devices in the market.

What are you your thoughts? Could this be a viable solution for Pentax to add to a 150mpx FF 645 one day?

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. I find that a large SD card holds all the pictures that I take on holiday in RAW format. When I get home, I copy them to a holding directory on my PC and process them in, say, Affinity Photo as I feel inclined, deleting those surplus that are to requirements. What would be the point of storing them on your camera?

CapitanXeon · 11-16-2021, 10:29 AM

I don't know if this has been said. CFExpress cards are functionally SSDs. They use a PCI Express bus, NVMe protocol, and achieve speeds comparable to the SSDs we can find in computers. Making them internal is plainly worse, as we wouldn't be able to change cards when full, damaged, or just to avoid using trash protocols like MTP (as i apparently have to use in my camera for some reason).

**Eric Auer** · 11-16-2021, 10:33 AM

The new 200mp Pentax 645 will have a 4tb non removable internal QLC NVMe SSD.

The lesser format peons will be forced to keep whatever removabale solution is available at the time.

Fogel70 · 11-16-2021, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

In practice I never take out my SD card. But it is really up to the manufacturers, to decide. Don't solder it but use an internal m.2 like solution so it can be easily replaced. I don't think it will happen fast because people will complain about how fast they will fill their terabyte shooting 8K video at 120FPS, which is of course absolutely necessary and not overkill at all.

If manufacturers use a fixed internal storage they also tend to have the software to run the device on the same drive. So it will not be easily user replaceable anyway unless they include a external recovery mode for the user. So the user can reinstall the software after the drive is replaced..

Ludwigvonkast · 11-16-2021, 12:53 PM

I just had an SSD hard drive fail in my system. Luckily, I had a back up to recover the data, so I did not lose anything irreplaceable. I simply threw away the damaged disk and replaced it for a new and better one.
I say this for you people to consider that if a failed SSD or memory whatever is installed inside the camera body, it would make the whole camera body inoperable. Yes, the concept to have a built-in memory in the camera, IDEALLY is a very nice one... buy is it 100% trustworthy? My idea goes back to that very logical statement that is attributed to Henry Ford: "If it is not broken, do not try to fix it".
The present system of removable SD cards works ideally well, why try to change it with a thing that is new and maybe not as useful?

lesmore49 · 11-16-2021, 01:01 PM

The SD card works just fine. We don't need to change. If it works well why change it.

firemann · 11-16-2021, 01:12 PM

Surely whatever storage medium you use you will back up everything to a computer or other device. Then any failure can only lose whatever has not yet been backed up.

**bspn** · 11-16-2021, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Mooncatt

If an SD card becomes defective you replace the card. If an SSD becomes defective, you replace the camera or pay a ton for repair.

Which do you think is better?

I'm also just a firm believer in removable storage. When I'm done with a card, I can store it separately for later. When I'm back home it's much preferable to pull my card out of a pocket to insert in my card reader, vs pulling my camera out, plugging it in, powering on, etc. I go out of my way to buy smartphones that maintain a micro-SD slot, and would do the same with a camera.

Yes, high repair cost and how long do I have to be without my new and more expensive camera???

Lord Lucan · 11-16-2021, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by firemann

Surely whatever storage medium you use you will back up everything to a computer or other device. Then any failure can only lose whatever has not yet been backed up.

If a fixed internal SSD fails, you won't lose the data if you backed it up, but you lose the camera. That's unless you pay a small fortune to have it repaired, even if you can find a Pentax repairer nearer than the opposite side of the world.

**southlander** · 11-17-2021, 12:29 AM

Without wading through all the posts here, I can see the point on a drone - an SD card, the slot and door extra add weight which is something undesirable on flying devices,. And removal of the card I suspect also eliminates a potential vibration related failure point. And in this case, the drone is a premium product where the purchaser is probably ok with absorbing the cost of 1Tb of storage. On lower end product, the bump up in price would be rather significant and eliminate buyers who would be happy to make do with less.

joergens.mi · 11-17-2021, 12:51 AM - **1 Like**

I'll prefer a fast card for at least two reasons.
- Fast exchange if full. I don't like to wait until the internal storage is emptied to my computer during an important phase. Switch cards ready. Several cards available, quick and easy
- Breakdown of the drone/ camera. How to access the last data internally?
- Removing card, assuring that no third person has access to my data (security personal, moving across borders always with no or empty card in.)

11-16-2021, 01:12 PM	#71
firemann New Member Join Date: Nov 2020 Posts: 1	Backups Surely whatever storage medium you use you will back up everything to a computer or other device. Then any failure can only lose whatever has not yet been backed up.

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11-16-2021, 09:37 AM	#61
GregL65 Forum Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Bellevue, WA Posts: 63	Originally posted by TDvN57 A built in SSD solves a lot of issues, the biggest advantage would be no need for a large buffer because the SSD can write fast enough. CFexpress cards use the same PCIe interface used by the fastest SSD cards. Like M.2 NVME SSDs they are many times faster than flash storage. The reason CFexpress cards exist is to solve this problem.

11-16-2021, 09:39 AM	#62
Geyst Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Maaseik, Belgium Photos: Gallery Posts: 158	An SD card is in fact an SSD, the difference is the connection to the microprocessor. A PC SSD has Sata or PIC or PCI express connection to the mother board.

11-16-2021, 09:47 AM	#63
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I generally tend to limit my usage of SD cards to 8 GB. More than that stresses my import software.

11-16-2021, 10:12 AM	#64
Pentaph Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 29	SD card, at lest the later high speed SD card is good enough for still image photography, even if you do high speed continuous machine gun shooting, the limit is the processor/ RAM on camera but not on writing speed or storage space. But for video, I can understand SD card is not the best option. CF card is so awful to mount but is faster in general and is still used on some camera. My blackmagic cinema camera needs an SSD drive, good thing is you can change the ssd any time.

11-16-2021, 10:28 AM	#65
OldDogTricks New Member Join Date: Oct 2021 Posts: 1	Originally posted by TDvN57 Just watched a review of the new Mavic III drone with Hassie 4/3 camera and no removable storage. According to the reviewer it has a 1tb SSD built into the camera. To make it practical the camera connects with USB-C. I've wondered about this concept for some time now and I recall a short discussion about as well here on the forum. But realistically, if we can enable ourselves to temporarily let go of what we find as must-haves in a system and consider what new technology offers, then it opens up new horizons. For example if there was a SSD solution available at the beginning stages of digital cameras, would they have ever considered a small removable cartridge, eg SD card? A built in SSD solves a lot of issues, the biggest advantage would be no need for a large buffer because the SSD can write fast enough. With regard to reliability, well my MS-Surface has a 1tb SSD built into the motherboard and it is still working everyday. If reliability is a serious concern, perhaps a second 1 or 2tb SSD also built in could solve that concern as well. Transferring data off of the camera with USB-C is fast and there are various options available such as a laptop, or a storage unit with the smarts to dump the incoming data onto a SSD and/or plugin drives. There are a couple of these devices in the market. What are you your thoughts? Could this be a viable solution for Pentax to add to a 150mpx FF 645 one day? Sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. I find that a large SD card holds all the pictures that I take on holiday in RAW format. When I get home, I copy them to a holding directory on my PC and process them in, say, Affinity Photo as I feel inclined, deleting those surplus that are to requirements. What would be the point of storing them on your camera?

11-16-2021, 10:29 AM	#66
CapitanXeon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Terrassa Posts: 220	I don't know if this has been said. CFExpress cards are functionally SSDs. They use a PCI Express bus, NVMe protocol, and achieve speeds comparable to the SSDs we can find in computers. Making them internal is plainly worse, as we wouldn't be able to change cards when full, damaged, or just to avoid using trash protocols like MTP (as i apparently have to use in my camera for some reason).

11-16-2021, 10:33 AM	#67
Eric Auer Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,211	The new 200mp Pentax 645 will have a 4tb non removable internal QLC NVMe SSD. The lesser format peons will be forced to keep whatever removabale solution is available at the time.

11-16-2021, 11:07 AM	#68
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by D1N0 In practice I never take out my SD card. But it is really up to the manufacturers, to decide. Don't solder it but use an internal m.2 like solution so it can be easily replaced. I don't think it will happen fast because people will complain about how fast they will fill their terabyte shooting 8K video at 120FPS, which is of course absolutely necessary and not overkill at all. If manufacturers use a fixed internal storage they also tend to have the software to run the device on the same drive. So it will not be easily user replaceable anyway unless they include a external recovery mode for the user. So the user can reinstall the software after the drive is replaced..

11-16-2021, 12:53 PM	#69
Ludwigvonkast Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Miami Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 32	I just had an SSD hard drive fail in my system. Luckily, I had a back up to recover the data, so I did not lose anything irreplaceable. I simply threw away the damaged disk and replaced it for a new and better one. I say this for you people to consider that if a failed SSD or memory whatever is installed inside the camera body, it would make the whole camera body inoperable. Yes, the concept to have a built-in memory in the camera, IDEALLY is a very nice one... buy is it 100% trustworthy? My idea goes back to that very logical statement that is attributed to Henry Ford: "If it is not broken, do not try to fix it". The present system of removable SD cards works ideally well, why try to change it with a thing that is new and maybe not as useful?

11-16-2021, 01:01 PM	#70
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,349	The SD card works just fine. We don't need to change. If it works well why change it.

11-16-2021, 01:52 PM	#72
bspn Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Northern MI Posts: 663	Originally posted by Mooncatt If an SD card becomes defective you replace the card. If an SSD becomes defective, you replace the camera or pay a ton for repair. Which do you think is better? I'm also just a firm believer in removable storage. When I'm done with a card, I can store it separately for later. When I'm back home it's much preferable to pull my card out of a pocket to insert in my card reader, vs pulling my camera out, plugging it in, powering on, etc. I go out of my way to buy smartphones that maintain a micro-SD slot, and would do the same with a camera. Yes, high repair cost and how long do I have to be without my new and more expensive camera???

11-16-2021, 03:16 PM	#73
Lord Lucan Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: South Wales Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,977	Originally posted by firemann Surely whatever storage medium you use you will back up everything to a computer or other device. Then any failure can only lose whatever has not yet been backed up. If a fixed internal SSD fails, you won't lose the data if you backed it up, but you lose the camera. That's unless you pay a small fortune to have it repaired, even if you can find a Pentax repairer nearer than the opposite side of the world.

11-17-2021, 12:29 AM	#74
southlander Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Adelaide Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,364	Without wading through all the posts here, I can see the point on a drone - an SD card, the slot and door extra add weight which is something undesirable on flying devices,. And removal of the card I suspect also eliminates a potential vibration related failure point. And in this case, the drone is a premium product where the purchaser is probably ok with absorbing the cost of 1Tb of storage. On lower end product, the bump up in price would be rather significant and eliminate buyers who would be happy to make do with less.

11-17-2021, 12:51 AM - 1 Like	#75
joergens.mi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 408	I'll prefer a fast card for at least two reasons. - Fast exchange if full. I don't like to wait until the internal storage is emptied to my computer during an important phase. Switch cards ready. Several cards available, quick and easy - Breakdown of the drone/ camera. How to access the last data internally? - Removing card, assuring that no third person has access to my data (security personal, moving across borders always with no or empty card in.)