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05-06-2022, 11:09 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
That is what I was thinking when I added Fuji X to my K1 to cover hi-res stills and 4K video. After about two years, I got tired of carrying two systems both in size, weight and cost. So, I went with Sony A7RIV which offers both capabilities in one camera system.
I understand your choice very well, I also believe "less is more" in terms of gear to carry around when shooting, carrying multiple devices distract from the main thing which is taking pictures or recording videos. So I went the K1 only route, but I'm not recording videos, and now that I got an interest in large format camera capabilities / camera-lens movements, and my opinion changed again, I now believe I should have two systems (or two setups): one "hand-held setup" when a tripod gets in the way of photography, and one "tripod setup" when the ultimate image is the goal and there is room for carrying and using a tripod. For still image, there is a tradeoff image quality / ease of use, all in one camera, e.g full frame is a good compromise but still a compromise IMO. The former idea of Pentax (apsc + medium format) had its merits.

---------- Post added 07-05-22 at 08:41 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
If someone can be equally happy or happier still shooting with an EVF rather than OVF
I think the EVF vs OVF difference and the OVF choice is over-emphasized in Pentax and other DSLR purist circles. All camera shops here stopped selling DSLR completely. When I wanted to order a DSLR lens, the shop owner told me "we don't sell DSLR anymore, please try to find online". So it doesn't really matter if OVF is better than EVF or not for the camera user, the majority defines what kind cameras should be made and sold.


Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-06-2022 at 11:48 PM.
05-07-2022, 12:53 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
The doom and gloom about the Z is irritating and makes my brain tired. I have better things to make my brain tired about.
No need to feel some stress, no worry, if 51Mpixels meet your needs, your 645z will continue to take good pictures for as long as it works. 645z is relatively large and heavy , but it's designed like a Rolls Royce, it's legendary.
05-07-2022, 01:07 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
I think the EVF vs OVF difference and the OVF choice is over-emphasized in Pentax and other DSLR purist circles. All camera shops here stopped selling DSLR completely. When I wanted to order a DSLR lens, the shop owner told me "we don't sell DSLR anymore, please try to find online". So it doesn't really matter if OVF is better than EVF or not for the camera user, the majority defines what kind cameras should be made and sold.
You're entitled to think that, biz - and I'm sure plenty of folks would agree with you... but it's highly subjective. There are folks who much prefer shooting through an optical viewfinder. I'm one of them - most of the time, at least. I own SLT and mirrorless cameras, and - unlike some members here - I'm fortunate that I don't have any problem using EVFs, even for extended periods of time. I'll admit, I actually find them better for certain isolated use-cases such as manual focusing (with magnified view and/or focus peaking) and shooting in very low or bright light (where the amplified or attenuated EVF view maintains good visibility of a scene); and I really like the ability to have a live histogram and/or exposure warnings as part of the electronic view. Functionally, EVFs work really well for me. BUT - I prefer the experience of shooting through an OVF, and I choose to do so for most of my general use cases. I'm not saying an OVF is better - simply that I find it more enjoyable. Photography is my hobby, not my profession, so for me it's mostly about enjoyment of the entire process, not just the end result.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-07-2022 at 01:24 AM.
05-07-2022, 01:35 AM - 2 Likes   #34
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Although I have migrated from a 645Z to a GFX100S, the EVF is one feature I tolerate rather than love. I find, in the low light conditions that I love so much, the EVF is very limited. There are many situations in which I want to roughly frame an image before deciding that I am setting up in the right place and all too often the EVF shows no image whatever in low light, forcing me to take a test shot for a few seconds on a high ISO just to allow me to compose by trial & error adjustment (which usually involves stopping, setting up the tripod, etc. when a quick peep through an OVF would have told me what I needed to know in order to select my vantage point). I miss the ability to pick up a DSLR and simply see what's there, even if it's in dark outline - and without even turning the camera on!

Obviously I have decided that the benefits of the camera outweigh the disadvantages, and they do. But I will always miss an OVF.

05-07-2022, 02:23 AM - 2 Likes   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ed Hurst Quote
Although I have migrated from a 645Z to a GFX100S, the EVF is one feature I tolerate rather than love.
Since I've looking into large format film cameras, 8x10", I think the viewfinder thingy on digital cameras is a joke. On an 8x10 view camera, you can the picture almost as it will be on the print, upside down. On a digital camera, whether it has an EVF or OVF, it's like looking at the world through a door locker hole.
05-07-2022, 02:29 AM   #36
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I think that these days with most camera gear you have to accept that it's probably only going to be worth a fraction of what you paid if you sell it after a few years. I have to say that I'm continually intrigued by the 645Z but I can't think of any reasonable case for owing one. I saw the OP's ad (and they don't live that far from me in Australian terms!!) and it's a good stash of gear but in all honesty I wouldn't be prepared to pay more than about 50 - 60% of the asking price even if I was in the market.

The MF market is so small, and the Pentax MF market is even smaller, that it's going to be a struggle to sell something like the 645Z at 50% of current retail. Just my opinion of course.
05-07-2022, 02:50 AM - 1 Like   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Since I've looking into large format film cameras, 8x10", I think the viewfinder thingy on digital cameras is a joke. On an 8x10 view camera, you can the picture almost as it will be on the print, upside down. On a digital camera, whether it has an EVF or OVF, it's like looking at the world through a door locker hole.
As always, biz, its a case of picking the compromises that work best for you. If you have the time and patience to carry, set up and shoot with an 8x10", that's great - but for most folks, the form factor and use-case limitations would be impractical. We all have different requirements and tolerances

05-07-2022, 03:38 AM - 5 Likes   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Since I've looking into large format film cameras, 8x10", I think the viewfinder thingy on digital cameras is a joke. On an 8x10 view camera, you can the picture almost as it will be on the print, upside down. On a digital camera, whether it has an EVF or OVF, it's like looking at the world through a door locker hole.
Those of us who like to like to look at a scene the right way up are clearly not in your demographic. Perhaps you should be posting in the upside down forum.
05-07-2022, 03:40 AM - 3 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
Those of us who like to like to look at a scene the right way up are clearly not in your demographic. Perhaps you should be posting in the upside down forum.
Isn't everything upside down in Oz anyway, Sandy? If you use an 8x10 you should see things as we do in the Northern hemisphere
05-07-2022, 03:53 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
As always, biz, its a case of picking the compromises that work best for you. If you have the time and patience to carry, set up and shoot with an 8x10", that's great - but for most folks, the form factor and use-case limitations would be impractical. We all have different requirements and tolerances
Of course what you say is common sense at first, if people would be given enough information to make choices. If you would be a new to photography in the last two years, and visited DPReviews reviews for making your mind about what camera to buy, you would have a rather narrow vision of the possibilities, you would think that the only camera to have is a full frame digital mirror-less from Canon, Nikon or Sony, and you would be unaware of medium format, unaware of Pentax, you would never even consider a camera with an OVF because such possibility would even exist in your mind. After reading DPR review, you would make a choice according to what you believe are your preferences.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-07-2022 at 04:14 AM.
05-07-2022, 04:38 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by carlb Quote
I think that these days with most camera gear you have to accept that it's probably only going to be worth a fraction of what you paid if you sell it after a few years. I have to say that I'm continually intrigued by the 645Z but I can't think of any reasonable case for owing one. I saw the OP's ad (and they don't live that far from me in Australian terms!!) and it's a good stash of gear but in all honesty I wouldn't be prepared to pay more than about 50 - 60% of the asking price even if I was in the market.

The MF market is so small, and the Pentax MF market is even smaller, that it's going to be a struggle to sell something like the 645Z at 50% of current retail. Just my opinion of course.
Yes I see your point but I guess what I was curious about was that on ebay and the Pentax website there are NEW 645Z's being sold (or at least advertised) for the same or more than what I am asking for my entire kit. If anyone was at all interested in buying a new Z surely a kit like mine for the price I am asking would be too good to pass up. The fact I haven't had any nibbles made me wonder if the new market for the Z has completely gone away.


And yes I know that camera gear after 7 years should expect a massive depreciation (I knew this going in and went for it anyway), but not many cameras are still around as 'current' models on the market place after that long either. The Z hasn't been replaced by a new model and it's performance at least image quality wise is still better than 99% of the cameras currently available.


If all I could get at this point was half of my current asking price I just don't think it would be worth selling, I'd rather keep it to use occasionally I think. It's still an awesome image-making machine and will probably still be working and putting out more-than-good-enough images and prints 20 years from now. Maybe 20 years from now it will be considered a classic and the prices will have gone up
05-07-2022, 04:49 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gyroscope Quote
If all I could get at this point was half of my current asking price I just don't think it would be worth selling, I'd rather keep it to use occasionally I think. It's still an awesome image-making machine and will probably still be working and putting out more-than-good-enough images and prints 20 years from now. Maybe 20 years from now it will be considered a classic and the prices will have gone up
I tried selling my mint condition, totally-as-new DA*60-250/4 lens here in our Marketplace. After various revisions, my final asking price was half the current UK cost for a new one. I'm the original owner, the lens has barely been used, it's a premium model, unmarked and boxed with hood, bag, documentation etc. Not so much as a nibble... MPB would have bought it for around half what I was asking (which is fair enough - they have to make money too). In the end, rather than sell it for peanuts, I decided to keep the lens.

To a large extent, I think this is just representative of a declining overall market, of which Pentax is a very small percentage...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-07-2022 at 11:41 AM.
05-07-2022, 05:37 AM - 3 Likes   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Since I've looking into large format film cameras, 8x10", I think the viewfinder thingy on digital cameras is a joke. On an 8x10 view camera, you can the picture almost as it will be on the print, upside down. On a digital camera, whether it has an EVF or OVF, it's like looking at the world through a door locker hole.
Once you get one and really get into it, as I did, you'll find that working with large format cameras is a lot trickier than it looks. Focusing is not quick or necessarily sure on a ground glass screen. Wide angle is a pain. The whole setup will be more expensive than you think. If you are not scanning, then prepare for a shock if trying to enlarge; otherwise it's contact printing---fine if that's the only size you want. If you are scanning, prepare for fun times with that---and basically being right back into a digital workflow. Hopefully you also don't live in a warm, humid climate. I've found myself bathed in sweat after working under a darkcloth. Then there's the tripod upgrade.

I personally don't miss large format photography.
05-07-2022, 10:19 AM   #44
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I bought a 645Z a year ago with the 55mm f/2.8 lens for 2000 euro. I think it is a fair price given how capable are the latest FF models you can find on the used market, as well as how close the Fuji 50R/S are in price as well.


As for the 28-45mm, I used to follow those on ebay religiously (ended up with a DA 25mm instead simply due to weight, and even then I find it too heavy). Generally speaking, none of those seem to sell unless sold waaaay below the average price. Yours literally has got to be the cheapest on the market, below $2000 easily, and even then its a waiting game.


Also, for those of you saying "its not worth selling for a price that low", well, this is not a film camera. While most of the depreciation has already happened, the price of digital cameras generally speaking only goes in one direction. So if you want a new camera, best to free up space/money.


That said, I still find some use for mine, but I use it as a companion to the 645N. I think I will sell it if I decide to sell the 645N. I'm not worried much because like I said - most of the depreciation has already happened, and owning it for the next 5 years is probably gonna cost me about a hundred bucks a year.
05-08-2022, 02:26 AM - 2 Likes   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
I tried selling my mint condition, totally-as-new DA*60-250/4 lens here in our Marketplace. After various revisions, my final asking price was half the current UK cost for a new one. I'm the original owner, the lens has barely been used, it's a premium model, unmarked and boxed with hood, bag, documentation etc. Not so much as a nibble... MPB would have bought it for around half what I was asking (which is fair enough - they have to make money too). In the end, rather than sell it for peanuts, I decided to keep the lens.

To a large extent, I think this is just representative of a declining overall market, of which Pentax is a very small percentage...
Your experience is not limited to Pentax. My wife tried to sell her old Nikon cameras after she upgraded, no market. Those were D700, D90, D810. She got them new when they came onto the market. After many years of not being able to sell the old ones she traded them in as part of a launch promo to buy the Nikon Z7ii and got +/- USD 650 for all three cameras as a discount on the Z7ii provided she bought the 24-70 Z lens as well. Took the deal. The old cameras were taking up space in the dry box.

I agree with @TexAndrews about getting a headache of all the Pentax price bashing. If you want to take nice pictures then get out there and use what you have. You want more capability then buy a "bigger" model that can do what you need. These are not investments. You want an investment? buy gold or some digital coin, but not cameras.

After using my 645z for seven plus years it is still performing flawlessly and I am still learning new capabilities of the camera. I've used mine in extreme temperatures from +45 degC to -34degC and it never failed. It is a balanced camera and if you care to learn it you will not have to fiddle with menus in the field, key functions have buttons you can control while wearing a glove. I seldom use a tripod and I don't need a FF camera, I use the 645z. I also have a KP with very low shutter count, nice camera, but I hardly use it, don't need it.

Sorry for blowing steam :-)
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