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08-05-2022, 11:12 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
The price difference for producing a MF sensor compared to a FF one seems to be huge so the difference between FF and a full-sized 645 (or 6x7), save a leap in production technology, would be even greater. Given that the market for digital MF is already very small, a significant price increase, even with corresponding image quality benefits, would mean a very small market indeed. Very few would be able to afford it. I understand that the only cameras that currently use the full-sized 645 sensor cost in the tens of thousands, which doesn't sound like Pentax's target market at all.

In short, I think it's very unlikely to ever happen.
Seems the price difference between the K3iii as the K1 struggles to support your theory about increased cost for 645 FF over 645 crop.

But yes in principle I agree, you have a point. There are many variables that can drastically influence the price, and then there is the market and the appetite of the manufacturer.

Looking at the increasing capabilities of cameras on mobile phones the camera market will most likely narrow down to serious photographers (hobby or pro). Nothing new here, as this had been discussed here on the forum many times.

Then there is the newer generation of photographers that want the capabilities of a 8x10 inch camera in a small compact format weighing nothing and lenses the size of the Pentax Q series. Plus if it doesn't have IBIS they freak out and they want eye tracking auto focus for flying insects. (satire or sarcasm?).

My point is the market character is changing amongst everything else. Will Pentax take on the task? We are all guessing and hoping.
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08-06-2022, 03:15 AM - 5 Likes   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by BarryE Quote
One persons landscape is another's intimate landscape. Here in the UK we don't do the scale of Canada, mores the pity. So small landscapes and crowded woods is what I tend to do. The K-1 works very well fro crawling about in the undergrowth
I love the 645z - and you can shoot vistas in the UK - all but one of these are from my home turf















I use mine extensively for 2 years as a main camera.

I do have some misgivings. Cost being one. I also a run a D850 which is near as dammit as close IQ and DR wise. The other one, and you aluded to it earlier in the thread is sensor dirt.

The camera is a pain in the backside to clean yourself, the sensor is very deeply recessed and hard to reach and you cannot get a great swipe with a swab. I've tried and not had so much luck. Most "professional" cleaners cite the same concern and getting a professional to clean it properly was tricky. Fixation refused to clean mine, Ffordes had a hell of a job getting it cleaned but in the end managed, Peartree in London charge 160 as they take the camera apart to clean. A J Johnson in Glasgow did it and did an ok job, but left a couple of spots. When A J Johnson clean the 35mm format cameras, they leave without any spots. I've used them for years, the guy explained why cleaning it was so tricky and it's due to the recessed sensor making a swipe harder to achieve. I've tried, I know what they mean.

Most of the lens aren't weather sealed which adds to the issue of dust being sucked down the lens barrel into the sensor. The 28-45 is well sealed, but my 45-85 and 80-160 are a nightmare for it. My 35mm format 24-70 and 70-200 which are sealed are a fair bit better in this regard. Only the 28-45 is the well sealed lens. No experience of the primes.

As a camera body though I rate it highly, but a detachable back system to give easier access to the sensor would be perfect.
08-06-2022, 04:42 AM - 2 Likes   #48
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I found cleaning the sensor less of a hassle since I stopped using swipes. Lately I only use the Pentax lollipop and the results are much better and also easier.

I saw a video somewhere of how to use the lollipop properly. Apparently you shouldn't pluck the dust from the sensor as I used to do, but very lightly roll the lollipop off the sensor.

A few years ago I cleaned my wife's D850 with a wet swipe and the top layer filter on the sensor delaminated and the repair bill was close to US1000 for a new sensor.

Since then I moved to the lollipop only and found the sensor stays cleaner for longer and also fewer spots.
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08-06-2022, 05:27 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by TDvN57 Quote
I found cleaning the sensor less of a hassle since I stopped using swipes. Lately I only use the Pentax lollipop and the results are much better and also easier.

I saw a video somewhere of how to use the lollipop properly. Apparently you shouldn't pluck the dust from the sensor as I used to do, but very lightly roll the lollipop off the sensor.

A few years ago I cleaned my wife's D850 with a wet swipe and the top layer filter on the sensor delaminated and the repair bill was close to US1000 for a new sensor.

Since then I moved to the lollipop only and found the sensor stays cleaner for longer and also fewer spots.
.
I lightly scratched a D800 - they are fragile things these sensors and it isn't a task I relish. I've tried with the Z myself using the bigger MF swabs but I find it tricky to do well. The D850 is easier, but the A J Johnson in Glasgow get it perfect every time.

08-06-2022, 09:40 AM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by SFTphotography Quote
I love the 645z - and you can shoot vistas in the UK - all but one of these are from my home turf















I use mine extensively for 2 years as a main camera.

I do have some misgivings. Cost being one. I also a run a D850 which is near as dammit as close IQ and DR wise. The other one, and you aluded to it earlier in the thread is sensor dirt.

The camera is a pain in the backside to clean yourself, the sensor is very deeply recessed and hard to reach and you cannot get a great swipe with a swab. I've tried and not had so much luck. Most "professional" cleaners cite the same concern and getting a professional to clean it properly was tricky. Fixation refused to clean mine, Ffordes had a hell of a job getting it cleaned but in the end managed, Peartree in London charge 160 as they take the camera apart to clean. A J Johnson in Glasgow did it and did an ok job, but left a couple of spots. When A J Johnson clean the 35mm format cameras, they leave without any spots. I've used them for years, the guy explained why cleaning it was so tricky and it's due to the recessed sensor making a swipe harder to achieve. I've tried, I know what they mean.

Most of the lens aren't weather sealed which adds to the issue of dust being sucked down the lens barrel into the sensor. The 28-45 is well sealed, but my 45-85 and 80-160 are a nightmare for it. My 35mm format 24-70 and 70-200 which are sealed are a fair bit better in this regard. Only the 28-45 is the well sealed lens. No experience of the primes.

As a camera body though I rate it highly, but a detachable back system to give easier access to the sensor would be perfect.
Lovely landscape shots. Makes me want to be there ...

:-) For the UK read England then. I suppose the Lakes, which I know very well after 30+ years of visiting, has the occasional vista of note :-). Guess that's what I was getting at, being that I'm a deprived southerner and you're way up there with the picts :-)

Interesting what you say about cleaning the sensor, backs up what I've read. The Pentax sticky lollipop thing works well on the K-1. No swiping just dabbing/rolling with care having indentified the dust with a loupe.

---------- Post added 08-06-22 at 05:41 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by TDvN57 Quote
I found cleaning the sensor less of a hassle since I stopped using swipes. Lately I only use the Pentax lollipop and the results are much better and also easier.

I saw a video somewhere of how to use the lollipop properly. Apparently you shouldn't pluck the dust from the sensor as I used to do, but very lightly roll the lollipop off the sensor.

A few years ago I cleaned my wife's D850 with a wet swipe and the top layer filter on the sensor delaminated and the repair bill was close to US1000 for a new sensor.

Since then I moved to the lollipop only and found the sensor stays cleaner for longer and also fewer spots.
.
Yes the lollipop works well. I use the Visible Dust loupe to help show me the way ...
08-07-2022, 07:51 AM - 1 Like   #51
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Just to jump in here again---to me, besides the fact that it's a great camera all around, the key argument for going with a Z over the Fuji offerings remains the lenses and their cost. New, things are on a par more or less. But the Pentax used market is deep and rich and very affordable, while the Fuji is too immature for bargains still.
08-08-2022, 03:18 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Just to jump in here again---to me, besides the fact that it's a great camera all around, the key argument for going with a Z over the Fuji offerings remains the lenses and their cost. New, things are on a par more or less. But the Pentax used market is deep and rich and very affordable, while the Fuji is too immature for bargains still.
You made a great point Tex. It's still slim pickings for the Fuji-mount lens choices so prices are pretty stiff.

08-08-2022, 04:07 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by TDvN57 Quote
Seems the price difference between the K3iii as the K1 struggles to support your theory about increased cost for 645 FF over 645 crop.
Price differences between APS-C and FF are completely irrelevant as they cannot be compared to FF vs 645. APS-C camera prices are now often on a par with, or even exceeding, those of FF cameras since the bottom dropped out of the lower end of the market, which is entirely APS-C and 4/3, so now there's a lot of overlap.

QuoteOriginally posted by texandrews Quote
Just to jump in here again---to me, besides the fact that it's a great camera all around, the key argument for going with a Z over the Fuji offerings remains the lenses and their cost. New, things are on a par more or less. But the Pentax used market is deep and rich and very affordable, while the Fuji is too immature for bargains still.
Well, if you're talking native lenses only then yes. The advantage of the Fujifilm system is that lenses from other systems can be adapted to the cameras, as is the case with all mirrorless systems. That includes all the Pentax MF lenses (645 or 67) but also includes a lot of lenses produced for 135 film or FF digital, for which there's a huge market, much bigger than the one for Pentax 645 lenses alone. Of course, that depends on how happy you are to focus manually.
08-08-2022, 04:35 AM - 1 Like   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
Well, if you're talking native lenses only then yes. The advantage of the Fujifilm system is that lenses from other systems can be adapted to the cameras, as is the case with all mirrorless systems. That includes all the Pentax MF lenses (645 or 67) but also includes a lot of lenses produced for 135 film or FF digital, for which there's a huge market, much bigger than the one for Pentax 645 lenses alone. Of course, that depends on how happy you are to focus manually.
Minus losing auto-focus and/or aperture control, which is a significant part of a camera system.


My new theory, after experiencing ILC systems, is: price is irrelevant if you buy what you need and nothing more than you need and keep the system for many many years. Even a Phase One kit owned and used 30 years costs no more than an frequently upgraded apsc or m43 system. In other words, if you believe that you will not need more than 51Mpixels 4:3 and Pentax 645z feature set for as long as the time frame of useful ownership, than a 645z and P645 lenses system is a good choice. Now, if you don't see yourself being satisfied with a 645z systems for long enough, than it's better no to go for it because each time we sell/buy it costs money and that money lost doesn't convert into the production of images, switching cost is just money lost. The primary key in lowering the costs of camera equipment is to make the right choice and stay with that choice for a long time, and when doing so, the prices of cameras/lenses become insignificant.
08-08-2022, 05:05 AM   #55
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Biz, here's how I look at it: You never know in advance of using said system if you've made the right choice even with the most careful and thorough research.

Most of us believe we're making the right choice when we spend significant money on a new camera. But then once we have it...
When I get to the point of seriously deciding to add medium format to my kit I think I'd be smart to do so using the lowest cost-of-entry, most other things being equal. There will be no practical difference in the images from either the Fuji or the Pentax. The bigger question is if medium-format is worth investing in at all. Wouldn't you agree?

To me it's no different from you deciding you'd like to give 4x5 a try. Should you jump in the deep end with the most expensive and latest one, or instead purchase a well-reviewed but more budget camera? IMO the likelihood of taking a price beating on the more expensive kit is greater if you decide it's not worth the investment for you and go to sell it. With a cheaper but quality kit you might sell for close to what you bought it for and even if not still take a relatively minor pocketbook hit. There's a lot of shooters out there wondering just like you did and not willing to throw their whole wallet at it yet.

Try the less expensive one first is my suggestion. That comes with the advantage of taking time to understand the limitations and f those aren't a barrier for you you've just saved a whole bundle of cash by by not paying more for things you don't need. Starting out you don't yet know if medium format is even something you want to stick with. Dollar from dollar you'll lose more disposing of the Fuji than you would a well-cared-for pre-owned 645Z.
08-08-2022, 08:15 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by gatorguy Quote
Most of us believe we're making the right choice when we spend significant money on a new camera. But then once we have it...
I'm very aware about what you're saying. To put it differently in three points below.

1) The desire to change or not to change depends from person to person (there are even personality tests to assess stability for hiring people in jobs). Some people don't like change, other people like to change up to a point that they are very creative, artists etc..
2) You make a choice at the time of purchase, based on assumptions. If your needs change later on, it's your business, no one else can be responsible for your changes.
3) Camera gear, if taken good care, can last a very long time. It's a lot cheaper to settle on a camera kit and use it for a long time, even if the kit is expensive, as opposed to buying cheaper kits and changing often.
Back to my point, 645z / lenses is a proven camera but at the moment it doesn't seem to evolve, but if you know you won't need to upgrade it, it can be a good choice. If you want a MF system that's still evolving, the Fuji seems a better choice because more lenses are being added and there is more than one body to chose from.
The main issue I have with Fuji MF is the lack on long lenses , nothing beyond 250mm, unless using an adapted Pentax lens. Other than that, the Pentax 28-45 is a lot more expensive than the GF 32-64. If I would assemble a FujiTax kit, it would be with the Pentax 645 120 macro (because Pentax is 1:1, Fuji's 1:2), and some 400mm Pentax lens.
08-08-2022, 01:00 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
Price differences between APS-C and FF are completely irrelevant as they cannot be compared to FF vs 645. APS-C camera prices are now often on a par with, or even exceeding, those of FF cameras since the bottom dropped out of the lower end of the market, which is entirely APS-C and 4/3, so now there's a lot of overlap.



Well, if you're talking native lenses only then yes. The advantage of the Fujifilm system is that lenses from other systems can be adapted to the cameras, as is the case with all mirrorless systems. That includes all the Pentax MF lenses (645 or 67) but also includes a lot of lenses produced for 135 film or FF digital, for which there's a huge market, much bigger than the one for Pentax 645 lenses alone. Of course, that depends on how happy you are to focus manually.
Some of the adapters can allow AF and even electronic aperture control.

My only experience of native Fuji lens to the GF was an image taken by another shooter who sent on the sample, terrible corner sharpness. Worse than these amateaur plastic fantastic entry level tamron super zoom cheapo things. But I know of many people adapting Canon EF glass, even Nikon F glass and other lenses to these cameras.
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