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05-07-2009, 09:26 AM   #1
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6X7 mirror/shutter slap

i have been researching the 645 and the 67 thinking which way to go to jump into MF

the 67 seems like the better option considering the sizes are not all that radically different and you get an even bigger negative.

however i have been reading that the achilies heel of MF cameras is the hefty shutter and mirror slap, and that this has a noticeable impact, particularly with hand held shots.


can someone with first hand experience comment on this?

05-07-2009, 10:37 AM   #2
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Look here:
http://users.accesscomm.ca/wrobb/VIBRATION.MOV
I don't know how to imbed this in my post, sorry.

Anyway, I rarely found vibration to be a problem with the 6x7, and it was never a problem handheld, where I was generally able to handhold the camera down to ~1/2 over the FL.
i have a nice 6x7 kit for sale if you are interested.

Last edited by Wheatfield; 05-07-2009 at 10:44 AM.
05-07-2009, 05:29 PM   #3
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Shutter vib is mostly noticable when using longer lenses such as the 300 Takumar, the two 400s, the 500, 600 etc. If you are trying to shoot between 1/2 and 1/30 sec with these, you could have problems with sharpness, when using a tripod.
05-07-2009, 08:27 PM   #4
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I have both and the sizes are very different between the 645 and the 67, along with how they handle. If you are shooting at slow speeds mirror vibration can be a problem but I rarely find it to be an issue.

The negative size of the 67 (6x7) is a real advantage over the 645 but both will just blow you away on a light table.

Tom

05-07-2009, 09:33 PM   #5
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The 6x7 and 67 have MLU to deal with some of the mirror issues. The 67ii is a sweet version. However, the later 645 models have the FA lenses and auto-focus.
05-08-2009, 07:20 AM   #6
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The first time you trip the shutter of a 67 format camera you'll feel it darn near jump from your hands and you'll be convinced that there's no way this thing will work very well...Then you'll expose a roll and it will come out delightful and you can quit worrying.

I have a collegue who only shoots handheld and mostly street photography, travel stuff somewhat similar to some of the images I've seen you post. He has never had issues with mirror slap with either 67 or 67II. I only shoot off a tripod and as another post mentioned, under 300mm you aren't likely to ever have a single frame with problems. With teles, you need to be careful, that's all.

Jump in with both feet, you won't regret it!

It will be interesting to hear your perspective as many of us learned photography in the film era and are now adding digital to our imaging skill set. You have posted regarding your learning curve with digital being the medium you've learned on. Can't wait for you to cross-apply that to film. Like most of us, you'll likely find that metering and capturing light is metering and capturing light, whatever technical means you use to do so.
05-08-2009, 10:16 AM   #7
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A tip to reduce camera shake on the 67's or any camera for that matter is to buy a mini-tripod. Screw it into the bottom and open the legs up against your chest. It gives you better stability than handheld. You'll have to see which mini-tripod size reaches from your comfortable holding position to your body.
12-28-2009, 11:35 PM   #8
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You can buy the tripod or do the old timers trick. Use a rope or strap. You need the strap for the 67, and just let it hang down after attaching it to the camera. Tie a thin, but strong rope to the strap, long enough to reach the floor. Now bring the camera up to eye level, and step on the rope with one foot, and pull up gently. Adjust the rope length to suit. Lock your elbows against the sides of your chest.

If you wear a leather belt - and it's long enough you can use that. Slip the Pentax strap thru the belt buckle before attaching it to the camera lug. Belt should easily reach the ground with the extra length from the Pentax strap. You will be amazed at how solid this set up is - and cheap.

12-31-2009, 10:05 AM   #9
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I've done a lot of research into the 67 since I love my 645 so much and the consensus internet-wide is: the larger negative size of the 67 doesn't make much of a difference until you're printing above 20x30, and even then the differences are almost negligible. As Tom said, both will blow you away when on a light table. And the mirror/shutter slap DOES make a difference on the 67. Source: Pentax67ii

My emphatic recommendation, along with most reliable sources, is to go with the more modern 645N or NII and not sweat "what could have been". You'll love the AF and advanced metering and lens lineup of the 645 more than you will the slightly better printing res at huge sizes. Probably.
12-31-2009, 10:06 AM   #10
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Oh, and I should add a response to your original question: the mirror slap of the 645 is insanely dampened and is NEVER an issue. the MLU of the 645NII is almost a useless feature.

Last edited by andycogbill; 12-31-2009 at 10:07 AM. Reason: quick trigger finger!
12-31-2009, 10:31 AM   #11
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The Pentax 645N has a form of mirror braking / de-acceleration /dampening that greatly reduced any mirror slapping effects seen in the original Pentax 645 (note the difference in name 645 versus 645N).

I have done a lot of hand held shooting with the 645N and a variety of lenses and can't say the results are affected adversely by the mirror system. It is a beautiful system. Another significant improvement in the 645N is the much, much brighter viewfinder, it is a joy to look through. The 645 was nice, the 645N viewfinder is hard to pull your eye from.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
however i have been reading that the achilies heel of MF cameras is the hefty shutter and mirror slap, and that this has a noticeable impact, particularly with hand held shots.
12-31-2009, 04:13 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by andycogbill Quote
I've done a lot of research into the 67 since I love my 645 so much and the consensus internet-wide is: the larger negative size of the 67 doesn't make much of a difference until you're printing above 20x30, and even then the differences are almost negligible. As Tom said, both will blow you away when on a light table. And the mirror/shutter slap DOES make a difference on the 67. Source: Pentax67ii

My emphatic recommendation, along with most reliable sources, is to go with the more modern 645N or NII and not sweat "what could have been". You'll love the AF and advanced metering and lens lineup of the 645 more than you will the slightly better printing res at huge sizes. Probably.
Just as a point that needs to be made in relation to the link you posted, all that Reichmann proved was that if you put an inadequate tripod under a camera and then load a long lens onto it, you are asking for problems.
I used a Pentax 6x7 for many year, often on a barely adequate Manfrotto 055 tripod, I don't recall ever having an image degraded by shutter or mirror slap.
The whole 6x7 mirror slap thing is an urban legend for retarded photographers.
Click the link in the second post of this thread.
12-31-2009, 05:26 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by andycogbill Quote
I've done a lot of research into the 67 since I love my 645 so much and the consensus internet-wide is: the larger negative size of the 67 doesn't make much of a difference until you're printing above 20x30, and even then the differences are almost negligible.
Hum, I can tell the difference between a 135 and 6x7 format on a 8x10 print right away. And difference shows up on a 8x10 print between my 6x7 and my 4x5 camera too. The 645 is not much bigger than 135 format. So I don't think you need to go 20x30 to tell the difference between 645 and 6x7.
12-31-2009, 05:46 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Just as a point that needs to be made in relation to the link you posted, all that Reichmann proved was that if you put an inadequate tripod under a camera and then load a long lens onto it, you are asking for problems.
I used a Pentax 6x7 for many year, often on a barely adequate Manfrotto 055 tripod, I don't recall ever having an image degraded by shutter or mirror slap.
The whole 6x7 mirror slap thing is an urban legend for retarded photographers.
Click the link in the second post of this thread.
I'm glad you posted that Wheatfield! I was starting to get a complex. I was considering dumping my lenses and turning my 6x7 into a lamp or flower pot.
12-31-2009, 08:50 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Hum, I can tell the difference between a 135 and 6x7 format on a 8x10 print right away. And difference shows up on a 8x10 print between my 6x7 and my 4x5 camera too. The 645 is not much bigger than 135 format. So I don't think you need to go 20x30 to tell the difference between 645 and 6x7.
What he said, most definitely.
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