Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-07-2009, 12:23 PM   #16
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 83
More sensible than you thought...

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
LOL why aren't you moaning about the lack of back for 35mm cameras then. This is non-sense.
Let me remind you. One of the most innovative 35mm cameras was made by Rollei, with interchangeable backs. You'll find one listed on eBay for about $3,500. But I decided not to go into the prospect of smaller cameras having interchangeable backs. Most people who use small cameras wouldn't have the experience to appreciate that level of technology being offered them. Rollei already had a substantial base of customers who didn't have to be convinced about the benefit of interchangeable backs in a small format camera.

I guess we are now seeing another company try a similar approach, with Ricoh's introduction of a small-format camera with a modular layout. Time will tell if Ricoh can be successful in marketing their camera, even though they are targeting a professional audience.

But I think you should consider the possibility that in the future, many cameras for high-end users will in fact have a very modular construction, unlike anything the majority of us are accustomed to now. I think one of the reasons for this is the fact that technology will encourage customers to demand more longevity from the products they buy. I also however concede that US customers won't be at the forefront there. They are simply too ignorant in general and strongly steeped in a disposable mindset. So for the market to change, it will have to do so from outside the US. Then, we may all begin to benefit from the forward thinking not typical of American's.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao

ps: Oh, and BTW. If that ever happens, there will be an even greater fallout of companies from the camera business. Simple reason is that the sensor companies will then take over the production of backs for small-format cameras, in the same way that it is now in medium-format. So you would have companies like Phase-One, Leaf and Kodak among others providing the imaging technology. Leaving the remaining camera makers to concentrate on the features of the camera itself. With sensors no longer being the way that one camera company could distinguish itself from another, they would have to concentrate on their optics. Although the could also sell their cameras based on how they managed the in-camera processing of the image. That would leave Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Leica as the big names capable of producing their own optics. For the rest, it will come down to Zeiss for the high-end independents, with Tamron and Sigma for those who won't buy lenses of such quality.

But that's just what I think.

12-07-2009, 09:54 PM   #17
Veteran Member




Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Washington DC, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 548
from 2008...

PENTAX 645 DIGITAL()

Sure it is from 2008, but hey it is something. Notice it is using an FA 75mm f/2.8. ISO goes up to 1600. CF and SD card slots.
12-08-2009, 07:06 PM   #18
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,915
i'm not familiar with the Pentax 645 system, but with the sensor seemingly almost removable, does that mean the camera can also operate with film backs?
12-09-2009, 08:07 PM   #19
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 83
Don't count on it!!

QuoteOriginally posted by k100d Quote
i'm not familiar with the Pentax 645 system, but with the sensor seemingly almost removable, does that mean the camera can also operate with film backs?
Pentax refused to have interchangeable backs when their cameras were intended for use with film. So don't think that now they would offer an option they wouldn't allow before. More likely than not, they'll just be larger bodies with no removable backs. And not having interchangeable backs will only destine Pentax to failure. Since they'll have to redesign and introduce new cameras every time they want to upgrade any of the main features. And look at how long it took them just to get this one done. And it still isn't released!

Mamiya made the same mistake in the beginning. But quickly relented when they realized they would never gain market share against Bronica which did have the interchangeable backs that Professional Photographers wanted and needed for their work. But Pentax never got the brains to do the same thing, and remained marginalized by their choice. So no, I think the same thinking will prevail here as well.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao

12-10-2009, 07:56 AM   #20
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
Pentax refused to have interchangeable backs when their cameras were intended for use with film. So don't think that now they would offer an option they wouldn't allow before. More likely than not, they'll just be larger bodies with no removable backs. And not having interchangeable backs will only destine Pentax to failure. Since they'll have to redesign and introduce new cameras every time they want to upgrade any of the main features. And look at how long it took them just to get this one done. And it still isn't released!

Mamiya made the same mistake in the beginning. But quickly relented when they realized they would never gain market share against Bronica which did have the interchangeable backs that Professional Photographers wanted and needed for their work. But Pentax never got the brains to do the same thing, and remained marginalized by their choice. So no, I think the same thinking will prevail here as well.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
Unfortunately each camera (interchangeable back or not) is re-designed.
Probably 90% of the cost is in the "back". As pixel density increases you need new RAM,CPU and sensor, not to mention programming costs..
Today the camera is dispensable in a 3-5 year time frame. Shorter if you just want to burn money...
If the cost of a new 645 is the same as others "back" it would more than likely encourage sales since you now get new mechanics. Even if more expensive you can still sell the old whole camera to recoup the difference.. No this is less of an issue now then in the past (digital has built in polaroid backs and any "film" type you like)
And as far as I know, interchangeable back or not, the 645 still sold well, or well enough to keep it around for years..
12-10-2009, 02:54 PM   #21
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Unfortunately each camera (interchangeable back or not) is re-designed.
Probably 90% of the cost is in the "back". As pixel density increases you need new RAM,CPU and sensor, not to mention programming costs..
Today the camera is dispensable in a 3-5 year time frame. Shorter if you just want to burn money...
If the cost of a new 645 is the same as others "back" it would more than likely encourage sales since you now get new mechanics. Even if more expensive you can still sell the old whole camera to recoup the difference.. No this is less of an issue now then in the past (digital has built in polaroid backs and any "film" type you like)
And as far as I know, interchangeable back or not, the 645 still sold well, or well enough to keep it around for years..
Jeff - good points. If backs were such a good idea, why haven't sony and canikon adopted them in their FF designs?

I think one has to give Pentax some credit here. If they can undercut the competition's MF camera by marked price reductions via backless designs, they will surely do so. Unlike some other makers, they won't be shackled by a prior camera case design.
12-10-2009, 03:22 PM   #22
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 83
This is all reall funny!!

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Jeff - good points. If backs were such a good idea, why haven't sony and canikon adopted them in their FF designs?

I think one has to give Pentax some credit here. If they can undercut the competition's MF camera by marked price reductions via backless designs, they will surely do so. Unlike some other makers, they won't be shackled by a prior camera case design.
Because I jut brought one of those old "dispensable/disposable" cameras which haven't been redesigned in thirty-years. It's the Hasselblad 500EL/M, and it still is capable of using digital backs. There are things called adapters. And they come in pretty handy for old folks like me who don't like throwing things out. You know, like the adapters that allow you to switch medium-format camera brands and use the same back on any of them. Like the adapters that'll allow me to use my Leica Visoflex lenses on my Hasselblad. Oh wait. Those are two of the oldest unchanged camera designs known to man. Wow! And they're both digital capable. Leica made certain not to abandon the design of the M-series and alienate their very strong customer base. And the same thing is true to a certain extent for the Hasselblad.

So I really don't see how an OLD design can be absolutely a cause to be shackled. No, it's just called longevity. If you really want to make a valid comparison, consider Mamiya. Not Sony or CaNikon, none of which produce medium-format cameras. And we are discussing medium-format, not 35mm cameras here.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
12-10-2009, 03:51 PM   #23
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
Because I jut brought one of those old "dispensable/disposable" cameras which haven't been redesigned in thirty-years. It's the Hasselblad 500EL/M, and it still is capable of using digital backs. There are things called adapters. And they come in pretty handy for old folks like me who don't like throwing things out. You know, like the adapters that allow you to switch medium-format camera brands and use the same back on any of them. Like the adapters that'll allow me to use my Leica Visoflex lenses on my Hasselblad. Oh wait. Those are two of the oldest unchanged camera designs known to man. Wow! And they're both digital capable. Leica made certain not to abandon the design of the M-series and alienate their very strong customer base. And the same thing is true to a certain extent for the Hasselblad.

So I really don't see how an OLD design can be absolutely a cause to be shackled. No, it's just called longevity. If you really want to make a valid comparison, consider Mamiya. Not Sony or CaNikon, none of which produce medium-format cameras. And we are discussing medium-format, not 35mm cameras here.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
How much are the backs? Pentax wants to sell the 645 for under $10,000
Hasselblad | CFV-39 39 Megapixel Digital Back | 3034214 | B&H
Back alone $13995. Might as well just get 2whole cameras........
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-U...wAg#ps-sellers
$9795... cheap...but only 16MP.
Whole camera w/ replaceable back (?)
http://www.adorama.com/HSCF39MSH2K.html
$42,995 or FOUR 645's worth.
Phase1 w/ back and 3 lenses ONLY $36,990
Mamiya 22mp at $3699.. opps not available (replaced I guess) Mamiya 645AFD III/AFD II, RB67 ProS/SD and RZ67 Pro IID, and many view cameras with optional adapters
How much should I add for the adapters?
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/585949-REG/Mamiya_310_120_ZDb_22_Megapixel_Digital.html
Here are the new back prices:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Digital-Backs/ci/2788/N/4294538586
$12,900, $17,990, or $20,490


Last edited by jeffkrol; 12-10-2009 at 04:04 PM.
12-10-2009, 04:19 PM   #24
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 83
Are you CRAZY!!

You really think that I'm expecting to buy NEW BACKS?? Yeah, I know the prices of the new backs are HORRENDOUS!! Of course they're expensive. But like I said, many of those backs are interchangeable across systems. Meaning you're not stuck with one medium-format system when you buy backs. But be aware of this. I buy everything I now own off of eBay. Meaning, they're all used. And I'm hoping not to even see a need for digital, once I get my 70mm film backs up and running for me. No, it won't be as cheap as digital, but I will have a nice option/alternative by shooting with them.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
12-10-2009, 04:38 PM   #25
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
You really think that I'm expecting to buy NEW BACKS?? Yeah, I know the prices of the new backs are HORRENDOUS!! Of course they're expensive. But like I said, many of those backs are interchangeable across systems. Meaning you're not stuck with one medium-format system when you buy backs. But be aware of this. I buy everything I now own off of eBay. Meaning, they're all used. And I'm hoping not to even see a need for digital, once I get my 70mm film backs up and running for me. No, it won't be as cheap as digital, but I will have a nice option/alternative by shooting with them.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
It's good to be thrifty... When 1st gen 645's are on ebay I bet they will be fairly discounted...
The back is 50% of the equipment. Lenses the other half of the equation. Bodies just hold everything together.. like tape and have as much value in the digital world.
I'm sorry I missed the digital part (ie digi-phobia)... Old 645's I believe are relatively cheap on ebay now as well.
We won't even go into cost of service of some of these old gems...
12-11-2009, 10:10 AM   #26
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
QuoteOriginally posted by Shingoshi Quote
You really think that I'm expecting to buy NEW BACKS?? Yeah, I know the prices of the new backs are HORRENDOUS!! Of course they're expensive. But like I said, many of those backs are interchangeable across systems. Meaning you're not stuck with one medium-format system when you buy backs. But be aware of this. I buy everything I now own off of eBay. Meaning, they're all used. And I'm hoping not to even see a need for digital, once I get my 70mm film backs up and running for me. No, it won't be as cheap as digital, but I will have a nice option/alternative by shooting with them.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
Pretty cool approach you've got there.

You would know better than i if Pentax has a viable strategy, i just think its interesting when a company like Pentax, who hasn't been in the MF market for a while, defines a different strategy to compete with the old line companies in that market.

My brother just told me that his dentist paid $18,000 for a Leaf MF camera, then mentioned that he wants to learn how to use LR. For those MF'rs that haven't shifted to FF cameras, perhaps Pentax can lure some prospective buyers away with their new lower prices. For that kind of money, i won't be involved, but its fascinating to watch the market place, and i wish Pentax the best of luck.
03-10-2010, 06:08 PM   #27
Inactive Account




Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 83
I guess you can all stop wondering now!!

This is the awaited BEAST!!

I hope everyone is happy now.

Xavian-Anderson Macpherson
ShingoshiDao
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
645d, camera, medium format
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax 645d an editors choice 2010 jogiba Pentax News and Rumors 5 10-15-2010 03:44 PM
American photo magazine names pentax 645d an editors choice 2010 Adam Homepage & Official Pentax News 2 10-12-2010 05:13 PM
Pentax 645D to be released April 2010 Freevision Pentax News and Rumors 164 03-25-2010 09:16 PM
645D coming to Europe in July 2010? theperception2008 Pentax News and Rumors 4 03-22-2010 02:40 AM
Picture of the Week 100: January 31, 2010 to February 14, 2010 Peter Zack Weekly Photo Challenges 93 02-14-2010 12:43 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:45 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top